TurboTax=TurboTrouble

Apologies ahead of time if I'm really getting down into the weeds and being unduly specific with the following IRS crazy-making trivia - but......HELP!.......
I'm a US citizen, resident in Ca.
I'm struggling to use TurboTax Deluxe (downloaded version for Mac) -  in order to prepare/file my 2012 returns.
My 2012 income includes distributions from 3 different UK Annuity policies - plus UK State Pension (Social Security)
I believe all 4 of the above items should be reported together on Form 1040 - line 16a, 16b - and I already know that all income received is fully taxable by both Federal and California govts.
My question is:
Must I/should I also be filing Form 4852 for each of the above?
Without at least filling out that form when using the TurboTax software - the software won't allow me to enter the combined total income generated by the Annuities and Pension onto line 16a,b of Form 1040.
Furthermore - filling out form 4852 (using TurboTax) seems to automatically generate a separate form 1099-Rs for each pension/annuity.
Turbo Tax is allowing me to leave box 6 (Payers ID number) on form 4852 empty - but in each instance - on the 1099-Rs it REQUIRES I fill it the "Payers Federal ID No." 
(Federal (US) ID No. for the UK (State Pension)!) Absurd. 
And so, in each instance, I entered:
99-9999999.

Solution???:
Perhaps the way round this is to not e-file but once I've completed my return - print out the forms, omit what the IRS does not want, and (snail) mail it.
I rang the IRS.  They say I shouldn't be filing 1099-Rs for UK pensions/annuity income. But I don't necessarily trust that that's the case?

Has anyone had any experience with reporting either UK (private) annuity income or State Pension??  I'd be grateful for any input (unless I've missed it - a search thru past posts here plus a ton of Googling hasn't revealed which forms (if any  ) - need to accompany my 1040) .........

You should have some basis in all of the private pensions so they should not be fully taxable as you describe.

I use TurboTax and have a UK private pension.  Yes it does create a 1099-R, and I put in a bogus number for the Fed ID.  However that is really just for my records, along with the 1099-R's from from my US pensions and IRA's.  The 4852 form is what is e-filed (or paper filed) to the IRS, and I would expect a 4852 for each foreign pension, and for the UK SS, where I would put UK Government as the employer.  I don't have a basis for my UK pension as all my contributions were before tax, and certainly none is indicated on the payment advice or P60 I receive from the pension provider.

In a few years I expect to begin receiving another private pension, then at age 68 my UK SS.

The 4852 form is what is e-filed (or paper filed) to the IRS, and I would expect a 4852 for each foreign pension,

I realise TurboTax has its own idiosyncrasies, but are you positive a 4852 is required for all paper filed returns?

I don't have a basis for my UK pension as all my contributions were before tax, and certainly none is indicated on the payment advice or P60 I receive from the pension provider.

I'm guessing your situation is different, but if you were filing a US return (and include the pension payments in declared gross income on 1040) whilst making pretax payments into a private UK pension, you would have a basis in the pension. I'm not certain of the situation if these contributions were made before a US obligation, but from Guyas' response to the OPs situation, it appears they may also have a basis in their private pension.

I await further input from the professionals.

I'm guessing your situation is different, but if you were filing a US return (and include the pension payments in declared gross income on 1040) whilst making pretax payments into a private UK pension, you would have a basis in the pension. I'm not certain of the situation if these contributions were made before a US obligation, but from Guyas' response to the OPs situation, it appears they may also have a basis in their private pension.

I await further input from the professionals.

As I said above there is no indication on my pension payment slips or P60 what I could use as a basis, unlike a US 1099-R which shows Employee contributions. (I have long since lost my UK pay slips where I made pension contributions, and I'm sure those were before tax).  If I claimed a basis I have no evidence of what it should be

I realise TurboTax has its own idiosyncrasies, but are you positive a 4852 is required for all paper filed returns?

I'm not positive about anything, only what TurboTax printed out for to file by paper last year (there was a bug in TT last year that took such a long time to fix I ended up filing by paper and TT printed it out)

I've just opened TT for this year and when I select print return, "all official forms for filing", the 4852 is listed. (I just did a screen shot as proof but I can't see how to add an attachment).

As I said above there is no indication on my pension payment slips or P60 what I could use as a basis, unlike a US 1099-R which shows Employee contributions. (I have long since lost my UK pay slips where I made pension contributions, and I'm sure those were before tax).

That's unfortunate. If you had records, you would have been interested in Publication 939.

http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/p939.pdf

That's unfortunate. If you had records, you would have been interested in Publication 939.

http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/p939.pdf

My UK pension is 220 GBP / month so I'll not shed too many tears on lost opportunity by not retaining my old UK employee records, but thanks very much for the info.

By the time I begin receiving my 2nd small UK pension I expect we'll be resident in the UK so plenty more tax complications to come.

Thanks for your reply Guya - I never described my private pensions as "fully taxable".....but that raises a point which was going to be my next question....but first things first:
I'm trying to determine, based on the facts cited in my initial post:
1. Does IRS require filing of Form 4852 for FOREIGN social security, pensions and annuities  (for which, of course, 1099-Rs are NEVER issued).
And, if so
2. Do they, in addition, require filing of the very 1099-Rs which the form 4852 is specifically designed to replace?
Turbo Tax, as stated before, generates and requires  BOTH - for each of my foreign income sources.

I started writing the above hours ago when only Guya had replied.  I'll post it now and....follow up with another post......

Thanks so much to "the OAP" and "durhamlad" for your helpful posts.....
I hadn't realized that the 1099-Rs which TT generated were "informational" only - and not sent to the IRS.  And so the entering of a fictitious EID (since TT require a number be entered - doesn't matter a whit). 
Is that right ?
and if so....
Whew!  At least one thing sorted out. 
Like the OAP - I too, question whether Form 4852 is required - but:
Upon reflection - and given my situation with the reporting of 4 different UK "pension/annuity" income sources on line 16a, 16b of my 1040 - it's probably just as well to file the 4 different 4852 forms;  the different amounts entered on each 4852 form - on lines 8a (gross distrib), 8b (taxable amt.) 8i (employee contributions) - act as backup for the total amounts shown on Form 1040 line 16a,b (which includes the 3 Annuities and UK State Pension)  Isn’t that so?
And that (line 8b and line 8i - form 4852) gets to the point raised by Guya and discussed by the OAP and durhamlad:
Yes, I do have a cost basis in each of the 3: 
They were all private self-employed retirement plans and my contributions were made with post-tax income. Therefore I should be able to re-coup my entire contributions amounts.  Isn’t that correct?

But, can anyone advise/confirm the following:
In 2012 I received 25% lump sum distributions when 2 of my policies were transferred from Self Emp. Retirement Plans (ie: pension plans) - into Annuities.
As I did not receive any Annuity income from either one in 2012 (they were set up to pay annually-in-arrears with 1st payment in 2013).....I want to know the following:
Can I take (reclaim) my entire cost basis in both of those Policys by simply subtracting my total contribution to each - from the lump sums paid me in 2012? And can I then enter that on line 8b as the taxable amount and enter the contribution amount on line 8i?
By doing so I would would recoup my entire cost basis in both pension plans - before their Annuity starting dates.  In 2012 - when my taxable income is so high (an anomoly due to lump sum payouts) - it would help reduce my tax payment.
I've relied on IRS Publication 575:
Page 17 - "Distribution Before Annuity Starting Date From a Nonqualified Plan" .......
Does anyone have any experience with this???
With my 3rd policy - since it was already an Annuity in 2012 - I used the “General Rule” and followed IRS instructions in Publiction 939 to determine the taxable amount of that income ( a mind-bending excercise designed to induce eternal migraine!)

And finally....I absolutely KNOW I should have professional guidance - and that a forum is not the proper venue for my technical questions - but....I'm "in an unanticipated "pickle"... .....and even laymens opinion will be so helpful at the moment.......so again....HELP?  please?

Thanks so much to "the OAP" and "durhamlad" for your helpful posts.....
I hadn't realized that the 1099-Rs which TT generated were "informational" only - and not sent to the IRS.  And so the entering of a fictitious EID (since TT require a number be entered - doesn't matter a whit). 
Is that right ?
and if so....
Whew!  At least one thing sorted out. 
Like the OAP - I too, question whether Form 4852 is required - but:
Upon reflection - and given my situation with the reporting of 4 different UK "pension/annuity" income sources on line 16a, 16b of my 1040 - it's probably just as well to file the 4 different 4852 forms;  the different amounts entered on each 4852 form - on lines 8a (gross distrib), 8b (taxable amt.) 8i (employee contributions) - act as backup for the total amounts shown on Form 1040 line 16a,b (which includes the 3 Annuities and UK State Pension)  Isn’t that so?

It makes sense if you think about it.  With a US firm paying a pension or annuity you don't need to send in a copy of the 1099-R because they have already done that.

With a foreign company you have to create a substitute 1099-R which is the 4852, and you explain there why there is no 1099-R and how you calculated the amounts you are reporting.  This is why I believe the 4852 needs to be filed with the IRS, and why TT prints it out as documents to be filed.  How else would the IRS get this information.

I find that it is easy in TT to click "Add another 1099-R" then click the little box that says a substitute 1099-R needs to be created, and then you complete the 4852 that it throws up.

Yes, I do have a cost basis in each of the 3: 
They were all private self-employed retirement plans and my contributions were made with post-tax income. Therefore I should be able to re-coup my entire contributions amounts.  Isn’t that correct?

But, can anyone advise/confirm the following:
In 2012 I received 25% lump sum distributions when 2 of my policies were transferred from Self Emp. Retirement Plans (ie: pension plans) - into Annuities.
As I did not receive any Annuity income from either one in 2012 (they were set up to pay annually-in-arrears with 1st payment in 2013).....I want to know the following:
Can I take (reclaim) my entire cost basis in both of those Policys by simply subtracting my total contribution to each - from the lump sums paid me in 2012? And can I then enter that on line 8b as the taxable amount and enter the contribution amount on line 8i?
By doing so I would would recoup my entire cost basis in both pension plans - before their Annuity starting dates.  In 2012 - when my taxable income is so high (an anomoly due to lump sum payouts) - it would help reduce my tax payment.
I've relied on IRS Publication 575:
Page 17 - "Distribution Before Annuity Starting Date From a Nonqualified Plan" .......
Does anyone have any experience with this???
With my 3rd policy - since it was already an Annuity in 2012 - I used the “General Rule” and followed IRS instructions in Publiction 939 to determine the taxable amount of that income ( a mind-bending excercise designed to induce eternal migraine!)

And finally....I absolutely KNOW I should have professional guidance - and that a forum is not the proper venue for my technical questions - but....I'm "in an unanticipated "pickle"... .....and even laymens opinion will be so helpful at the moment.......so again....HELP?  please?

I'm afraid I have no experience with this. Hopefully someone else can come along and help.

Thanks durhamlad for your guidance and helping me to understand how to navigate TT
a bit better (Using that software is like fitting trapizoidal shaped pegs into rigid square holes - TT really isn't designed to accomodate foreign income!)
 I hope someone will come along to answer my query re: deducting my cost basis from my pension lump-sum income payout - rather than amortizing it over the projected years of the Lifetime Annuity Policys. 

I wil post this, but you must understand that I am not a professional, and I could be wrong:

@ CaLaCa
From your comment, I think you understand this: any 'tax free' lump sum from a foreign pension is not tax free on a US return.

I understand your question, but I'm not the person to answer it. My guess is you can not deduct a lump sum and still retain a full deduction for your following distributions. Check Pub. 939 again. I seem to remember it refers to this situation in the work sheets, and is one of the first questions asked when filling in the worksheets. I believe I've seen some pros argue that your contributions can be pro-rated to the lump sum, but that certainly is grasping at straws in the back of my memory, and for you, I would consider my recollection worthless.

The use of 939 seems to be correct (nonqualified pension), but the Pros may tell us that the language in the Treaty may allow it to be calculated with the 'simplified method'. It takes a Pro to know the correct answer, and it may depend on which Pro.

With a foreign company you have to create a substitute 1099-R which is the 4852, and you explain there why there is no 1099-R and how you calculated the amounts you are reporting.  This is why I believe the 4852 needs to be filed with the IRS, and why TT prints it out as documents to be filed.  How else would the IRS get this information.

If you have income from foreign employment, you are not required to file a substitute W2 (it's been too long, it is W2 isn't it?) if filing a paper return from abroad. There is no informational form required, but you must maintain, and hold on to, accurate records.

If you have interest from a foreign bank account, you are not required to file a substitute 1099int if filing a paper return from abroad. There is no informational form required, but you must maintain, and hold on to, accurate records.

Why would you then need to file a substitute 1099 for a foreign pension? It may be different if you are resident in the US, but I don't think so.

TurboTax is designed for the US, for normal US based filers, and US exceptionalism. It can fall down when trying to file as an expat, or when filing with a more complicated foreign situation.

And, once again, I could be wrong on all this.

I wil post this, but you must understand that I am not a professional, and I could be wrong: 1
@ CaLaCa
From your comment, I think you understand this: any 'tax free' lump sum from a foreign pension is not tax free on a US return. 2

I understand your question, but I'm not the person to answer it. My guess is you can not deduct a lump sum and still retain a full deduction for your following distributions. Check Pub. 939 again. I seem to remember it refers to this situation in the work sheets, and is one of the first questions asked when filling in the worksheets. 3
The use of 939 seems to be correct (nonqualified pension), but the Pros may tell us that the language in the Treaty may allow it to be calculated with the 'simplified method'. It takes a Pro to know the correct answer, and it may depend on which Pro. 4
If you have income from foreign employment, you are not required to file a substitute W2 (it's been too long, it is W2 isn't it?) if filing a paper return from abroad. There is no informational form required, but you must maintain, and hold on to, accurate records.

If you have interest from a foreign bank account, you are not required to file a substitute 1099int if filing a paper return from abroad. There is no informational form required, but you must maintain, and hold on to, accurate records.

Why would you then need to file a substitute 1099 for a foreign pension? It may be different if you are resident in the US, but I don't think so.

TurboTax is designed for the US, for normal US based filers, and US exceptionalism. It can fall down when trying to file as an expat, or when filing with a more complicated foreign situation.

And, once again, I could be wrong on all this.

1 I do understand OAP - but really appreciate hearing your point of view.....so thank you for taking the time......
2 Yes, I know its all fully taxable - which is why I'm trying to determine re: IRS Pub. 575 - whether it (the lump sum itself) can have its taxable amount reduced by applying my contribution ("cost basis", I think they call it?) against the 2 lump sums received in 2012 (as explained in IRS Pub. 575 page 17.)
With my 3rd Annuity - converted from a pension in 2011 - and for which I started receiving Annuity payments at the end of that tax year - I applied the General Rule - Publication 939 - and hopefully did the proper calculations (I think I did)....but my burning question specifically relates to whether I've correctly interpreted and applied the info in Pub 575 - page 17
3 Oh I agree entirely - that's exactly my interpretation.  If I deduct for my contributions to my lump sum - I will have "used up" the ability to deduct anything going forward - in both cases my contributions were far far less than the lump sum payouts - so when I report the annuity incomes - they would be 100% taxable.
4 I determinbed I had to use the "General Rule" Table 1 - because of a myriad of factors relevant to my policy, which they cite.  

so .....I'll hope someone will offer some guidance re: my burning question  
don't want to end up in "debtors prison", do I?

If you have interest from a foreign bank account, you are not required to file a substitute 1099int if filing a paper return from abroad. There is no informational form required, but you must maintain, and hold on to, accurate records.

Why would you then need to file a substitute 1099 for a foreign pension? It may be different if you are resident in the US, but I don't think so.

TurboTax is designed for the US, for normal US based filers, and US exceptionalism. It can fall down when trying to file as an expat, or when filing with a more complicated foreign situation.

And, once again, I could be wrong on all this.

I am a US resident with UK pension and interest income and can only report what TurboTax has me do.

With interest, there is no substitute form 1099-INT to complete and file.

With pension income, TT has me complete a substitute 1099-R (form 4852).  When I filed by paper last year TT printed out form 4852 as part of my return.  This year I e-filed and as I said above I just re-opened that return and asked TT to print out the forms required for filing and the 4852 is listed.

There is no way that I would not send in that single sheet of paper when filing a paper return.  There is no comeback if you send the IRS more bits of paper than they ask for, but there sure is if you don't send something they want.

Why would you have to type all that information into a 4852 form about how you determined the amount reported if you are not going to send it in with the return?  It even has a line at the bottom of the form where you must sign and date.

You may well be correct, but as I say, I'm not a tax pro and simply rely on TurboTax.

One last note on form 4852

If you open the form on the IRS website it says you should attach it, so why wouldn't you?  Again, I am a US resident reporting a foreign pension.

http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/f4852.pdf


Substitute for Form W-2, Wage and Tax Statement, or Form
1099-R, Distributions From Pensions, Annuities, Retirement or
Profit-Sharing Plans, IRAs, Insurance Contracts, etc.
▶
Attach to Form 1040, 1040A, 1040-EZ, or 1040X