Labour 'apprentice for each foreign worker' scheme

"So we're going to say to any firm who wants to bring in a foreign worker that they also have to train up someone who's a local worker, training up the next generation."


Why tie the two together?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-24190746

Labour are grasping at straws. (Isn't it a bit early for that? This is the kind of shoddy policy I'd expect as some sort of last-ditch we-hate-immigrants-too! move.) There are so many things abjectly illogical about the proposal, it's hard to even know which bit I'd start with when telling Ed to get smegged. (To be fair, all three of 'em can, but the Lesser Miliband is this minute's object of ire.)

Not sure if you saw the interview this morning with Ed Milliband, but I think it's a good policy.
It is not referring to people on residency visas, the example given was if a company wants to bring in IT workers from India (which has happened with the company I was made redundant from), then in order to get them the visa (tier 2 is it?) then the company also have to commit to train someone. It's about training up the current workforce.
They can't enforce the same type of policy for EU immigrants or spousal visa as you have leave to remain, it's not a work visa.
I saw on a facebook ex-pat page that DW subscribes to that someone said "so nobody would give me a job because they'd also have to train someone", to be fair the amount of misinformation I see on that site is unbelievable and you aren't supposed to criticise on there, it's all about being supportive! I asked DW to put a correction up but she didn't.

Thing is, even if the rules don't require someone to train an apprentice if they hire one of us, I don't buy for a minute that many of us will find it twice as hard to get a job because people will think they need to do it. I've had people tell me openly that I wasn't going to be considered for jobs I applied for because I wasn't EU, even though they believed I was legally able to work. They admitted they were scared of goofing up and didn't want to take the risk. This would exacerbate that, and I don't think it can be enforced. So often when they are bringing others in it's precisely because they can't find someone here to fill it in the first place.

Plus, it isn't that easy to just train someone up.  My husband is a software engineer and they recruit from all over the world. 

Everyone seems to think software is easy and really means connecting some cables on a computer or something, but what he really needs are people who took four serious years of maths at university or have a head for computer languages and that isn't something you can just train someone to do. 

So often when they are bringing others in it's precisely because they can't find someone here to fill it in the first place.

But thats exactly the point I'm making. This is for companies applying for Tier 2 visa's to bring workers in, so they have to commit to training as well. So they get that when they apply.
Working in IT I know how it works, having said that having been made redundant by a bank because they offshored loads of development work to India I think this is where they need to address it. Banks that have been bailed out by the government are laying staff off and moving the work abroad.
I do software development, I could cross train onto a different platform but companies aren't prepared to do that and instead just go for a tier 2 instead

But I think you're missing the point.  Outsourcing to another country to save costs is a completely different thing than hiring someone from another country to come on an expensive visa that you have to prove that you couldn't find anyone in the UK or EU to cover.

But I think you're missing the point.  Outsourcing to another country to save costs is a completely different thing than hiring someone from another country to come on an expensive visa that you have to prove that you couldn't find anyone in the UK or EU to cover.

I know they are different. But if companies are constantly having to bring people in on Tier 2 visas because they can't find people here then we have to address the issue of them not finding people here and offer training to people so we have the workforce.

Also, it's not just a case of outsourcing to another country, they are bringing these staff in to do the job that people laid off were doing - and this in a bailed out bank.

But the jobs that they bring people into the UK for are highly specialised.  I mean you can't have an apprentice for an senior contsultant, or a science/maths teacher. 

The pathway to those jobs already exists, people just aren't doing them. 

I know they are different. But if companies are constantly having to bring people in on Tier 2 visas because they can't find people here then we have to address the issue of them not finding people here and offer training to people so we have the workforce.

Also, it's not just a case of outsourcing to another country, they are bringing these staff in to do the job that people laid off were doing - and this in a bailed out bank.

That's an abuse of the Tier 2 system, then, which wouldn't be resolved with apprentices.

It's a tricky thing. The argument for liberal Tier 2 kind of things is that they actually decrease off-shoring. And while the Tier 2 worker may send some money back to the homeland a lot of it stays here. Plus we benefit from the other country's expenditure on training (which leads to questions about 'brain drain'). Too the company might get to pay less thereby becoming 'more competitive'. That is sh*tty from my view from the left, but I'm sure it makes shareholders smile.

Globalisation stymies me.  The best I can come up with is a requirement that while goods and services should be free to flow wherever they choose employee conditions must be made equal. In a way that is what is occurring in the vacuum of Laissez-fairism but with middle/working class Western living standards eroding towards those of developing countries.

It all sounds rather natural except to someone who is out of work or has threatening letters being jammed through the mail slot.  

But these sorts of ideas about linking immigration to apprenticeships ultimately cause  confrontation between workers, which is just what someone like a bailed-out bank would love to see.

But the jobs that they bring people into the UK for are highly specialised.  I mean you can't have an apprentice for an senior contsultant, or a science/maths teacher. 

The pathway to those jobs already exists, people just aren't doing them. 

This is what I was saying to my husband -- you can't expect someone on £30K to apprentice for minimum wage for a more specialised £50K job being done by a non-EU immigrant. Nor would it make sense to have an entry-level person apprenticing for that specialised, high-level position. Tier 2 holders don't (generally) get through the system because they're doing entry-level or early-career jobs, or skilled manual labour; they're doing jobs that have extant education pathways and career trajectories.

This is what I was saying to my husband -- you can't expect someone on £30K to apprentice for minimum wage for a more specialised £50K job being done by a non-EU immigrant. Nor would it make sense to have an entry-level person apprenticing for that specialised, high-level position. Tier 2 holders don't (generally) get through the system because they're doing entry-level or early-career jobs, or skilled manual labour; they're doing jobs that have extant education pathways and career trajectories.

Exactly - most Tier 2 visas are for jobs that are so specialised that there are only a small number of people in the world actually capable of doing them... because those people either have a certain mindset (i.e. a genius scientist or a world-renowned surgeon or medical researcher) and/or several decades of experience and knowledge and recognition behind them which means they are able to do that specific type of job.

Those aren't the kinds of jobs that you can just train up an apprentice for. They usually require high-level academic qualifications, plus several years of experience in the field.

At 25, I was as trained up as I could be at that age for the field I wanted to work in (geophysics), which just happened to be one of the fields that is listed on the Tier 2 Skills Shortage list. I had 2 degrees, 6 years of studying and 2 research dissertations behind me; I also had 10 years of customer service experience and knowledge/experience of several different scientific computing programmes and languages.

But could I get a job, even in a 'shortage' area? No, I couldn't. Because the companies weren't hiring recently-trained graduates, they were hiring project-management level employees who had at least a PhD and 10 years of experience. There are not many geophysicists in the UK who are trained to that level, and the field is by default an international one - you have to go where the jobs are and where the research centres and geophysical companies are based, and most of them are overseas.

So, the companies I wanted to work for were no doubt having to hire experienced workers from outside the EU, while I couldn't get a job with them and ended up working in retail in the UK at just above minimum wage.

It's very common in that field to move abroad to work, especially as the job opportunities are more lucrative and plentiful in other countries. Several UK geophysics/geology graduates that I know are now working abroad - in the US, Norway, Tokyo, Australia etc. (I moved to the US myself to further my qualifications in the field)... so even if we do train up people here there's no guarantee they will stay in the UK to work... especially not when they can earn double the salary to do the same job in countries like the US or Australia.

I came here on a Tier 2.  I had busted my tail in school to finish top of my class and had many, many years of varied work experience (plus completed an MBA while working) to set myself up in my niche area of expertise.  I would be happy to have an apprentice but would this be a new grad straight out of school at the age of 21 with no experience?  Or would it be someone in their 30's with several years of in-depth experience of a variety of areas of financial analysis?  I don't think someone in their 30's would be interested in an apprenticeship.

I think this is one of those things that sounds good on paper, but the logistics would be near impossible to manage.

OK, I admit I may be off somewhat on my assessment of Tier 2 visas, but ultimately I think this is a good basis for a policy. We have to look into, and try to address, why these jobs cannot be filled within the existing workforce, perhaps if it's a case that for every Tier 2 then the company also has to set on an apprenticeship in another associated role (maybe not the actual same role), or look into the company having to contribute to university scolarships for those types of skills.