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Topic: UK Workplace Pensions: The Definitive Guide to How the IRS Treats Them  (Read 3095 times)

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Hi, all.

I have searched through this board and much of the Web and have been unable to find a definitive and yet concise source of information for how UK workplace pensions are treated for US tax purposes (i.e., for US citizens).  Does anyone know of a useful guide?

Assuming not, below are topics/questions/information tidbits that I've come up with.  Will this possibly help toward creating a "sticky" here for others to use?  I think it would be most helpful if, in contributing to the below, we try to clearly label what is fact and what is just the consensus view among tax experts, as much of this stuff is a grey area.

DEFINED CONTRIBUTION
FBAR.  It seems that the broad consensus is that a workplace pension must be reported here, correct?  (Or, stated otherwise, it is simply not worth the risk to not report the pension on the FBAR?)

8938.  Same as above -- most experts agree that a workplace pension needs to be included here, as well, once one exceeds the reporting threshold, of course.  Agreed?

PFIC and Foreign Trust Reporting.  “Because the U.S.-U.K. double taxation treaty recognizes U.K. retirement plans as ‘qualified’ in U.S. tax terms, the more complicated Passive Foreign Investment Company and Foreign Trust reporting rules do not apply.”  Do you agree with this expert’s statement regarding pensions and both PFIC and foreign trust reporting?  In other words, PFICs do not have to be reported if housed within a pension?  Separate, but related, question:  if one chooses not to invoke the treaty, does this mean that he/she then needs to report PFICs in a pension, on top of declaring it as a foreign trust, or is that irrelevant? 

Contributions.   Here is where things get confusing for me, particularly around claiming tax treaty relief.  Some advisors say it is not necessary to do this, saying that “depending on personal circumstances, it may be better long-term US tax planning to forego a claim for this particular relief when any US tax that could be ‘saved’ is in any case able to be offset by foreign tax credits.” 
  • Is anyone able to say what the positives and negatives are to invoking the tax treaty, particularly when it comes to contributions?  From what I see online, if one does not invoke the treaty, one would then try to treat all the contributions (both employer and self-funded) as taxable income and then attempt to use excess tax credits to cover the US tax liability, with the advantage then being that distributions, at retirement, will be tax free in the United States? 
  • Is it correct that one can decide year to year (i.e., depending on income and pension contributions), whether it makes sense to invoke the treaty or not for that year?
  • If more than 50% of the total pension contribution comes from the individual (i.e., not the employer), is this a significant issue?
  • Is it correct that the total maximum contribution to a UK pension, including both employer and personal funds, cannot exceed $53,000 (as of 2016)?

DEFINED BENEFIT

FBAR.  Not necessary, as there is no stated/known value -- according to two people here, but they may be incorrect.

8938.  Required, assuming one meets the minimum reporting thresholds for this form.

PFIC and Foreign Trust Reporting.   TBD.

Contributions.    TBD.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2016, 09:48:01 PM by shunting123 »


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FBAR.  It seems that the broad consensus is that a workplace pension must be reported here, correct?  (Or, stated otherwise, it is simply not worth the risk to not report the pension on the FBAR?)
I have never reported my 2 UK pensions as they are both defined benefit plans with no stated value to report and no option to do anything except take monthly payments.  I am currently receiving monthly payments from one of them and the other I expect to start monthly payments next year. I do report the income of the pension I am receiving on my US tax return and pay taxes on it.  I expect SIPP's will be different as the owner knows the value and can invest the funds as desired within the limits of the SIPP

8938.  Same as above -- most experts agree that a workplace pension needs to be included here, as well, once one exceeds the reporting threshold, of course.  Agreed?
Same as above for me, I've never filed an 8938 as I have no total $ value on my UK DB pensions and don't have any SIPP's.

PFIC and Foreign Trust Reporting. I hold no UK funds or stocks in my DB pensions so have nothing to report.  It may well be different for funds invested within a SIPP.
Dual USC/UKC living in the UK since May 2016


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FBAR.  It seems that the broad consensus is that a workplace pension must be reported here, correct?  (Or, stated otherwise, it is simply not worth the risk to not report the pension on the FBAR?)
I have never reported my 2 UK pensions as they are both defined benefit plans with no stated value to report and no option to do anything except take monthly payments.  I am currently receiving monthly payments from one of them and the other I expect to start monthly payments next year. I do report the income of the pension I am receiving on my US tax return and pay taxes on it.  I expect SIPP's will be different as the owner knows the value and can invest the funds as desired within the limits of the SIPP

8938.  Same as above -- most experts agree that a workplace pension needs to be included here, as well, once one exceeds the reporting threshold, of course.  Agreed?
Same as above for me, I've never filed an 8938 as I have no total $ value on my UK DB pensions and don't have any SIPP's.

PFIC and Foreign Trust Reporting. I hold no UK funds or stocks in my DB pensions so have nothing to report.  It may well be different for funds invested within a SIPP.

I do exactly the same for my defined benefit pensions and for the same reasons. I also have a SIPP and do report that on my FBAR and 8938.


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Thank you for this, but I've realized that I should probably update the above to say that my questions related more to defined contribution plans.

Your input is still helpful, so maybe I will revise all of this content at a later date to show that the answers vary depending on the type of plan.


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Durhamlad and Anchor, do you want to maybe double-check your statements about 8938 and DB?  The consensus elsewhere seems to be that you do need to file this form, with a stated plan value of 0. 
« Last Edit: July 07, 2016, 07:17:14 PM by shunting123 »


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Durhamlad and Anchor, do you want to maybe double-check your statements about 8938 and DB?  The consensus elsewhere seems to be that you do need to file this form, with a stated plan value of 0.

8938 depends on the total value of all accounts. The value of a DB pension is either the amount of the distribution that year or $0 so, if your accounts in total exceed the reporting limit, then the DB should be included.

Incidentally, there is no Definitive Guide (as per your header) that is why you will get different views.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2016, 08:01:29 PM by Anchor »


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Durhamlad and Anchor, do you want to maybe double-check your statements about 8938 and DB?  The consensus elsewhere seems to be that you do need to file this form, with a stated plan value of 0.

I've seen the discussions but I've never included my DB pensions in my FBAR filings over the last 29 years. I've filed plenty of FBAR's when the total of my UK bank accounts was over $10k but never listed my DB pensions but if others feel the need to list them as zero value it can't hurt.  I've never met the threshold for 8938 filing.

Dual USC/UKC living in the UK since May 2016


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Anchor, I'm sorry, but I'm just not getting it.

You said above that you fill out the 8938 (on which your SIPP appears), which would have to mean you meet the minimum reporting requirements, correct?  If that is the case, then why wouldn't you include the DB pension on this form each year?


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Anchor, I'm sorry, but I'm just not getting it.

You said above that you fill out the 8938 (on which your SIPP appears), which would have to mean you meet the minimum reporting requirements, correct?  If that is the case, then why wouldn't you include the DB pension on this form each year?

I'm sorry if I caused confusion. I report my SIPP on FBAR, but not my DB pension.

I report my SIPP and DB pension on my 8938.


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OK, thank you.  Anybody well-versed in rules concerning Defined Contribution plans?


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My husband will have a defined contribution plan and we will report the value on the FBAR. Have to do an FBAR anyway, no big deal. Will take a while before we have enough assets to worry about 8938.

My understanding is also that the treaty exempts UK employer-sponsored pensions from any PFIC or foreign trust rules.


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