Brexit?

Yes.....I agree with everything you said. But I still come back to why people here keep pointing out the horrible things that the Leave side did.....and not the Remain side. It's not fair.

I have no idea how facts, figures and extrapolations are seen as horrible things. They used actual data to show how the UK is likely to be affected by Brexit.

The other guys used statistics to show how many immigrants have "British jobs" (oops, I stole a British job), said how much British money is being used to shore up XYZ eastern European country, and alluded to that money being given to the NHS instead and so many other things.

I'd really like to know what so offended you. The facts and figures given by the Remain side are scary and highly likely. Economists are usually good at their jobs.

All I'm saying......what was on the side of that bus was a slick campaign statement......that really didn't say anything.....something I noticed immediately. They left room for interpretation ......likely on purpose.

As you've pointed out a number of times in this discussion, you're very insightful, Fred.

Anybody who took that statement to mean that they WERE going to give £350m a week to the NHS was delusional and silly enough to believe what politicians say.

You got very defensive when jimbocz called out Trump supporters for being racists, but you're calling people who believed the leave campaign bus slogan "delusional". That doesn't seem fair.

But I notice......the point of view that you keep bringing up is how horrible the Leave people were. You move quickly on from how rediculous the statements from the Remain folks were. How many times did they start their statements with the purpose of scaring the crap out of people with "If you vote Leave.....the economy could drop 20%"(made this up, no idea of the number).....all their statements had the same crappy comments that didn't actually hold them to anything......this could happen....this might happen....

And you keep spouting off about the number of ways you can interpret a simple statement painted on the side of a bus to make it mean whatever you want it to mean, while simultaneously saying you're not a remain supporter. You should have the courage of your convictions to just say you're in favor of Brexit.

When people want to make other people see their way......they tend to point out the "facts" that support their way of thinking......which is why Republicans like to watch Fox....Dems like to watch MSNBC. I have constantly stated that both sides ran a terrible campaign......both sides gave misleading statements.....I would like to think I am able to see through most of them (because I don't believe any of them....I just assume they are lying to me...unfortunately, I'm usually right).

Yes, you've repeatedly told us about your ability to see through the lies that nobody else can. You are as astute as you are humble.

As much as this discussion has been fun, I think I get your point. All politicians are liars, and if more people could see this like you can, and just accept the fact that it really doesn't matter which way you vote because whatever is going to happen is going to happen, and nobody knows in advance what that is so you might as well just accept that and deal with it when it comes, the world would be a better place.

I'm going to print that on an inspirational poster, with a picture of one of those funny drinking birds that eternally dips it's head into a glass of water.

As you've pointed out a number of times in this discussion, you're very insightful, Fred.


You got very defensive when jimbocz called out Trump supporters for being racists, but you're calling people who believed the leave campaign bus slogan "delusional". That doesn't seem fair. Where did I do this?

And you keep spouting off about the number of ways you can interpret a simple statement painted on the side of a bus to make it mean whatever you want it to mean, while simultaneously saying you're not a remain supporter. You should have the courage of your convictions to just say you're in favor of Brexit. Again.....where have I said I am not a Remain supporter?

Yes, you've repeatedly told us about your ability to see through the lies that nobody else can. You are as astute as you are humble. I don't trust politicians. Do you?

As much as this discussion has been fun, I think I get your point. All politicians are liars, and if more people could see this like you can, and just accept the fact that it really doesn't matter which way you vote because whatever is going to happen is going to happen, and nobody knows in advance what that is so you might as well just accept that and deal with it when it comes, the world would be a better place.

I'm going to print that on an inspirational poster, with a picture of one of those funny drinking birds that eternally dips it's head into a glass of water.

Someone is very defensive......I guess it could be me.....and it could be.....??

Yep.....a slowdown is what was stated as being what would likely happen. Even a few years. After that.....who knows?
How's that research that the Remain folks did turn out? So far....almost nothing has gone as predicted.

Again.....I will state......and likely nobody will take notice since they are too busy trying to make the Brexit folks out to be horribly wrong (which they may be.....who knows?)......I was all for Remain. But......this EU state is NOT what the UK voted for in 1975........

I will also state again...

BREXIT HASN'T HAPPPENED YET.

It has simply been voted to happen.  And they are working out the terms. Everyone is waiting to see what those will be before making any major decisions. The slowdown is happening before Brexit has even happened.

You got very defensive when jimbocz called out Trump supporters for being racists, but you're calling people who believed the leave campaign bus slogan "delusional". That doesn't seem fair.

Where did I do this?

Today, about an hour and 10 minutes ago {emphasis added}:

All I'm saying......what was on the side of that bus was a slick campaign statement......that really didn't say anything.....something I noticed immediately. They left room for interpretation ......likely on purpose. Anybody who took that statement to mean that they WERE going to give £350m a week to the NHS was delusional and silly enough to believe what politicians say.

where have I said I am not a Remain supporter?

You haven't. In one post you said you couldn't vote in the referendum, but if you could have you probably would've voted remain.

You've spent the rest of the argument defending the leave campaign and wondering why the rest of the people participating aren't pointing out the remain campaign lies like they are for the leave campaign, while questioning the free movement of people and the creeping intrusion of the EU into the lives of British people since the initial vote back in the 70's. So while you say you'd have voted leave, everything else you say sounds like you would've voted remain.

Someone is very defensive......I guess it could be me.....and it could be.....??

I don't think you're defensive. I also don't think your argument is coherent.

I will also state again...

BREXIT HASN'T HAPPPENED YET.

It has simply been voted to happen.  And they are working out the terms. Everyone is waiting to see what those will be before making any major decisions. The slowdown is happening before Brexit has even happened.

But.....many predictions (which some people ignore) were for immediate doom as soon as it was voted upon...I mentioned this earlier.  Here is a horrible scenario....silly....but it's what I do.....
The scene(forgive me for not being able to write a script)......a man and woman sitting in the lawyers office going through the final divorce proceedings.  Lawyer says...."Well, that's it.......Fred owes Sarah 4 gazillion Pounds". Fred then states "What?.....a gazillion? that's a lot!!" "Well....(as he looks at his ex wife) we will talk about this tonight". Her response....."What the hell?....we are divorced! You aren't coming home." Fred sits there stupefied....."What? Ok........maybe a little sex later?" Again the ex states "Are you nuts?.....we are getting divorced!! Everybody knows what getting divorced means!"

UK voted for Brexit......the claim for further discussions....."We didn't know what Brexit meant!" We really didn't mean it meant leaving the EU!!

I'm done.....probably......but, my wife isn't divorcing me......for some reason she likes me. I'm always mystified at that one........

Today, about an hour and 10 minutes ago {emphasis added}:

You haven't. In one post you said you couldn't vote in the referendum, but if you could have you probably would've voted remain.

You've spent the rest of the argument defending the leave campaign and wondering why the rest of the people participating aren't pointing out the remain campaign lies like they are for the leave campaign, while questioning the free movement of people and the creeping intrusion of the EU into the lives of British people since the initial vote back in the 70's. So while you say you'd have voted leave, everything else you say sounds like you would've voted remain.

I don't think you're defensive. I also don't think your argument is coherent.

I've been constantly trying to stick up for both sides. Not something that you have made any effort at doing.
Actually....let me clarify.....You've made NO effort at representing both sides.

I've been constantly trying to stick up for both sides. Not something that you have made any effort at doing.
Actually....let me clarify.....You've made NO effort at representing both sides.

That's because I'm in favor of the remain side. I'm not making the leave argument because I disagree with it.

I also disagree with your contention that all politicians are equally corrupt and therefore it doesn't matter which way you vote. While it may be true that members of both the leave and remain campaigns made misleading statements in the weeks and months before the vote, the outcome mattered, and still does.

That's because I'm in favor of the remain side. I'm not making the leave argument because I disagree with it.

I also disagree with your contention that all politicians are equally corrupt and therefore it doesn't matter which way you vote. While it may be true that members of both the leave and remain campaigns made misleading statements in the weeks and months before the vote, the outcome mattered, and still does.

To you.....the vote was disastrous. To my wife the vote was great. Who has the better right to their views? Do you view my wife's view as irrelevant? Stupid? Just because it doesn't agree with you?

I never said that all politicians are equally corrupt. But......to take any of them at face value is not wise. Do you think that believing what they say at face value is wise? Come on.....put yourself on the line......I'll put myself on the line, can you?

To you.....the vote was disastrous. To my wife the vote was great. Who has the better right to their views? Do you view my wife's view as irrelevant? Stupid? Just because it doesn't agree with you?

Not irrelevant or stupid, but I disagree with her.

I never said that all politicians are equally corrupt. But......to take any of them at face value is not wise. Do you think that believing what they say at face value is wise? Come on.....put yourself on the line......I'll put myself on the line, can you?

I'm not sure what you're after, Fred. You've made your points, I've made my points, we disagree, and are unlikely to change each other's minds. At this point I don't know why we're still discussing anything.

Not irrelevant or stupid, but I disagree with her. Fair enough.

I'm not sure what you're after, Fred. You've made your points, I've made my points, we disagree, and are unlikely to change each other's minds. At this point I don't know why we're still discussing anything. So why are we? Will you at least acknowledge that you "could" be wrong? I know I can be.....

Will you at least acknowledge that you "could" be wrong?

Not on this. For starters, I think leaving the EU is a bad idea in and of itself. Second, I think the process of leaving has been chaotic and incompetently managed by people who are caught between reality and the unrealistic promises they made to the British public. Finally, I think the end result will leave British people in a less advantageous position than they were in previously.

I understand you think your position is more open-minded, or accommodating of more possible outcomes, or whatever you want to call it. To me it reads like you either lack the courage of your convictions, or you have none to begin with.

To me it reads like you either lack the courage of your convictions, or you have none to begin with.

Huh? Seems like I have stated my opinion (as you have yours) pretty plainly. I have stuck by what I think is right (in my opinion). Where did the insult of no convictions come from?

Huh? Seems like I have stated my opinion (as you have yours) pretty plainly. I have stuck by what I think is right (in my opinion). Where did the insult of no convictions come from?

All of this:

As a reasoning person....I thought about it from both sides.

Both sides spoke crap.

I have constantly stated that both sides ran a terrible campaign......both sides gave misleading statements.

I don't see how you can say that both sides were wrong while also claiming you have a strongly held conviction on the matter.

Also this:

I still come back to why people here keep pointing out the horrible things that the Leave side did.....and not the Remain side. It's not fair.

Other people do not see it as "both sides were lying and horrible." Some people see it as one side or the other was lying and horrible.

Also this:

I have no idea how things will turn out........anybody who says they know are just spitting into the wind. If Brexit happens....I'll make the best of it. If it doesn't happen...I'll make the best of it.

That doesn't sound to me like a person who has strongly held opinions. It sounds like someone who thinks it doesn't matter what happens, because it has nothing to do with him.

Some people know how to quote the entire post including older comments.....I thought I've seen someone else ask this in the past.....how do you do that? I just copied and pasted instead and added comments.

Quote from: F4mandolin on Today at 11:29:47 AM
Huh? Seems like I have stated my opinion (as you have yours) pretty plainly. I have stuck by what I think is right (in my opinion). Where did the insult of no convictions come from?

All of this:

Quote from: F4mandolin on Yesterday at 11:56:20 AM
As a reasoning person....I thought about it from both sides.
A person with conviction doesn't do this? That would be silly. 

Quote from: F4mandolin on Yesterday at 12:22:45 PM
Both sides spoke crap.
My opinion on this is VERY strong. Not sure why you think this fits with a lack of conviction.

Quote from: F4mandolin on Yesterday at 05:49:29 PM
I have constantly stated that both sides ran a terrible campaign......both sides gave misleading statements.
I'll stick with this obvious comment.

I don't see how you can say that both sides were wrong while also claiming you have a strongly held conviction on the matter.
I don't get it. Did not both sides give an inaccurate portrayal of what would happen? You don't think both sides did this? You think only one side did it?  The facts would seem to indicate otherwise.

That's because I have the sense to know that I can't predict the future. If I flip a coin into the air.....I can call it heads, or call it tails.....but the reality is that I don't know what's going to happen. From my point of view....I can see things going either way with Brexit. I can see a small chance of it not happening at all. Saying I know what is going to happen when I don't is not a lack of conviction.....it's a simple true comment. If I get information that would swing me strongly to one side or the other I will make that move at that time. Yes, I know that in your opinion it's already obvious. Is the stock market going to go up or down? I can find lot's of people who are confident of one view or another.....experts. But also what most experts admit, they don't know for sure what is going to happen.

Also this:

Quote from: F4mandolin on Yesterday at 06:33:01 PM
I still come back to why people here keep pointing out the horrible things that the Leave side did.....and not the Remain side. It's not fair.
Were there inaccurate comments coming from both sides....yes or no? The answer is yes.

Other people do not see it as "both sides were lying and horrible." Some people see it as one side or the other was lying and horrible.
Why? How can you take all the info in and come to the conclusion only one side was making things up?
Also this:

Quote from: F4mandolin on Yesterday at 01:59:45 PM
I have no idea how things will turn out........anybody who says they know are just spitting into the wind. If Brexit happens....I'll make the best of it. If it doesn't happen...I'll make the best of it.

That doesn't sound to me like a person who has strongly held opinions. It sounds like someone who thinks it doesn't matter what happens, because it has nothing to do with him.
You come to incorrect conclusions about me based on your bias. People do it all the time.....so do I. Until I get information that makes me believe one side or the other is better, what point would it make if I jumped in on one side without having the belief that that side was correct? Again.....I realise to you the info is obvious and you have made your conclusions based on how you interpret that data. A finance reference again.....I think the stock market will go up in the next 6 months. Based off the info I have seen.....I interpret that info and come to that conclusion. The market might go down.....there might be some other data that might make me change my conclusion....and I will if it happens.  For some reason you can't understand someone else having a different opinion than yours.

I am not saying the Leave side is correct and the Remain side is wrong (and vice versa). You may very possibly be correct that leaving the EU is a horrible decision. I have not said otherwise. I object to the way you view  people who think differently than you. I don't know what the answer is....this is my firmly held belief. Aren't many court cases thrown out because the jury can't come up with a firm belief for innocent/guilty? Some jurors may take the same info and some vote for conviction.....the others vote for no-conviction. If I were one of those jurors on the Brexit vote and HAD to vote one way or the other......I would vote for Remain.....barely. But I will stick up for the person with a different honest view and respect the conclusion they come to.