Leave to enter until

Hi,

I’m over in a Paris with my wife and 2 American friends. At Gare du Nord’s UK immigration desk at Eurostar we all got a grilling. I’m UK, my Brazilian wife is here on a spouse visa and the Americans are on holiday.

The Americans quit their jobs in the US and bought a one way to London. They arrived on Friday and then we went to Paris. The UK Borders officer was very aggressive, especially to the Americans. They were honest and said they quit their jobs and was doing a bit of a European tour. The officer grilled them and asked what their plans were. The officer wanted exact details even though they were doing everything as it came. They said they might go to Berlin on 19 March, so the officer offered either a Rejection, or Leave to Enter until 19 March. They took the Leave to Enter. The whole encounter was very aggressive and shocking.

What does this mean now? They must leave the UK on 19 March? And not come back? Can they leave and come back after a few days? They’re thinking of going to the US embassy for advice.

Thanks,
M

They should definitely leave the UK by the 19th and not a minute longer. 

I wouldn't risk returning to the UK for some time.  They will be flagged now and they will definitely need to provide strong ties that they plan to return to the USA to be allowed entry.  This would include a return flight, jobs to return to, healthy bank account, evidence of a home they are maintaining while being away, etc.  Honestly, not having a plan isn't the best plan they could have made.  What are their intentions?  You can see why it would look odd from an Immigration Officer's perspective, can't you?

They both have very healthy bank balances. They fly a lot (they flew into UK last Friday) and were previously in the UK 4 months prior. They decided to quit their jobs (in the same well-known company) and decided to have a European tour. They’re using our place outside London as a base. They had planned to go to Berlin, Dublin and Madrid at some point.

What do you mean to not come back to the UK for some time? The officer in Gatwick was as nice as could be, even with telling the same information. In fact, he was wishing them a great holiday.

One is due to have a video interview for a job in Washington DC that will require international travel. This feels like they are being marked as dodgy.

They both have very healthy bank balances. They fly a lot (they flew into UK last Friday) and were previously in the UK 4 months prior. They decided to quit their jobs (in the same well-known company) and decided to have a European tour. They’re using our place outside London as a base. They had planned to go to Berlin, Dublin and Madrid at some point.

What do you mean to not come back to the UK for some time? The officer in Gatwick was as nice as could be, even with telling the same information. In fact, he was wishing them a great holiday.

One is due to have a video interview for a job in Washington DC that will require international travel. This feels like they are being marked as dodgy.

I get it.  I do!

But they are going to have a harder and harder time trying to enter the UK from here on out....  it's just the way it works.  They've been flagged.  If they have a return flight out of the UK the next time they enter, it'll be a bit better.  But definitely no guarantee of re-entry.  Did they not consider applying for a multientry visitor visa before departing?  They wouldn't have these issues now.  Though I appreciate hindsight is 20/20.

International travel for the new job won't be an issue.  He/She will just need to have strong documentation on them for the first few entries into the UK to prove he/she has a job/life to return to in the USA.  Having the return flight is paramount.

Thanks for the replies. They’re really appreciated.

I guess they didn’t think of a multi-entry visa as they thought they would have no issues with coming back into the UK from a short trip to Paris. Especially as they got a 6 month stamp on their passports only a week ago. They were planning to stay in/around the UK for a month or so.

Everyone is extremely upset and working out what to do next. We were looking forward to 2 more Americans arriving in London tomorrow and the mood has turned very sour.

We’ll check with the US embassy tomorrow.

Good old Brexit!

Martin

Thanks for the replies. They’re really appreciated.

I guess they didn’t think of a multi-entry visa as they thought they would have no issues with coming back into the UK from a short trip to Paris. Especially as they got a 6 month stamp on their passports only a week ago. They were planning to stay in/around the UK for a month or so.

Everyone is extremely upset and working out what to do next. We were looking forward to 2 more Americans arriving in London tomorrow and the mood has turned very sour.

We’ll check with the US embassy tomorrow.

Good old Brexit!

Martin

The embassy doesn't help with visas.  But give them a call if it'll make them feel better. 

Especially as they got a 6 month stamp on their passports only a week ago. They were planning to stay in/around the UK for a month or so.

The problem with the 6-month stamp is that it's only single-entry. The 6-month leave to enter is cancelled the minute they leave the UK and they have to apply for another 6-month stamp every time they come back in again... and the immigration officer is under no obligation to let them back in if they are concerned they may be an overstay risk.

In order to show they are not an overstay risk, they have to be able to prove the following:
- a return ticket (to show they will leave within 6 months)
- enough money to support themselves for the length of their trip (so they won't have to resort to illegal working to survive)
- evidence of ties to return to in their home country (a job, a home etc.), to show they have a reason to go back to the US and won't attempt to stay in the UK illegally.

If they had not gone to Paris (or left the UK for any other country and then tried to come back), their original 6-month stamp would still be valid and they wouldn't have any issues with UK immigration. Unfortunately, because they left, their 6-month visitor visa got cancelled and they had to start from square one to get back in the UK again.

If, however, you apply for a visitor visa in advance, you get a multiple-entry visa sticker and can come and go from the UK as often as you like within the 6 months.

Good old Brexit!

It has absolutely nothing to do with Brexit, I'm afraid. The immigration rules have been this way for a number of years. The UK is not part of the Schengen Zone and therefore there are immigration checks going in and out of the UK/other EU countries. Every time they leave the UK and come back, they need a new visitor visa. The only exception is travelling between the UK and Ireland as they are both part of the CTA (Common Travel Area) and there are no immigration controls between the two countries.

The problem with the 6-month stamp is that it's only single-entry. The 6-month leave to enter is cancelled the minute they leave the UK and they have to apply for another 6-month stamp every time they come back in again... and the immigration officer is under no obligation to let them back in if they are concerned they may be an overstay risk.

In order to show they are not an overstay risk, they have to be able to prove the following:
- a return ticket (to show they will leave within 6 months)
- enough money to support themselves for the length of their trip (so they won't have to resort to illegal working to survive)
- evidence of ties to return to in their home country (a job, a home etc.), to show they have a reason to go back to the US and won't attempt to stay in the UK illegally.

If they had not gone to Paris (or left the UK for any other country and then tried to come back), their original 6-month stamp would still be valid and they wouldn't have any issues with UK immigration. Unfortunately, because they left, their 6-month visitor visa got cancelled and they had to start from square one to get back in the UK again.

If, however, you apply for a visitor visa in advance, you get a multiple-entry visa sticker and can come and go from the UK as often as you like within the 6 months.

When we got into St Pancras station, my wife and one of the Americans talked to one of the customs officers there. They took the American's passport, did a few checks and were astounded at what happened to them. They said that the immigration officer went totally over the top, especially her very aggressive attitude to all of us. They gave us contact details to talk to the immigration office in Croydon so we're going to escalate it there tomorrow.

The customs officers also said that they're seeing an increase in these kind of cases from the Paris immigration checks. At the desk next to us, some young women was crying from the interrogation.

I talked to my brother last night who used to work on the ports (including the Eurostar) as part of his job. When I explained that the immigration officer pulled out a Rejection and 'Enter to leave until 19th March' stamp and asked the Americans "what's it to be?" then she was completely out of control. Any doubts for rejection should require the people to be brought into an interview room for further questioning.

Well, my friends went to Croydon immigration center but had no luck there. They don't deal with inquiries (since 2015!) according to a security guard.

So they plan to contact the UK Embassy in Dublin to get a new tourist visa. The plan is to book a flexible ticket back to the US, fly to Dublin, have an appointment, get a tourist Visa, and hopefully come back into the UK.

All a bit messy but anyway. My only concern is proving you obeyed the "leave to enter until 19 March" rule. Can they get their passport stamped flying out of Heathrow? I don't recall any passport checks exiting the UK, so would going through the passport scanner be sufficient to proving you're flying out?

P.S. Our other US friends flew into Gatwick a few days ago with no return ticket and they too had no issue. Seems the issue is at Eurostar.

The won't apply for a visitor visa at the embassy in Dublin.  They MUST apply from their country of residence - the USA.  The complete the application online the same way you did for your spouse visa.  Then they attend biometrics and send everything to NYC.  It should be very quick (just a few days or weeks) but they can apply priority if they want to have it processed faster.

The issue is leaving the decision to the Immigration Officer on the day.  You will encounter nice and tough Immigration Officers at every single airport and every single train station and every single port.  When you don't apply in advance, it is 100% up to the individual on the day. 

So they plan to contact the UK Embassy in Dublin to get a new tourist visa. The plan is to book a flexible ticket back to the US, fly to Dublin, have an appointment, get a tourist Visa, and hopefully come back into the UK.

I wouldn't risk that, to be honest.

There are no immigration controls between the UK and Ireland, so entering the UK via Ireland could be seen as deliberately trying to circumvent the UK immigration rules, which could get them in even more trouble than they've already had (it could even lead to a 10-year ban from entering the UK).

Also, they can't get into Ireland to start with without a 3-month visitor visa, which covers them for the Ireland and the UK (and which will be given to them as a stamp at the airport), so I don't see the point in making an appointment with the embassy, since by entering Ireland, they will already have a tourist visa that allows them to enter the UK. The problem would be as I mentioned above, whereby UK immigration may believe they have used deception to enter the UK.

The best things to do would be:
1) to leave the UK before March 19th and not attempt to enter the UK again for several more months
or
2) return to the US to apply for multiple-entry visitor visa for the UK via the New York consulate.

My only concern is proving you obeyed the "leave to enter until 19 March" rule. Can they get their passport stamped flying out of Heathrow? I don't recall any passport checks exiting the UK, so would going through the passport scanner be sufficient to proving you're flying out?

There aren't any exit checks, but their passport will show when they entered a different country (i.e. when they enter the US), thereby proving when they left the UK.

And the little chip in the passport holds all the entry/exit date.  When they re-enter the USA, they'll be "checked out" of the UK. 

Thanks both. They received a response from the immigration complaints department for more details but unsure if anything can be resolved at this stage.

And the little chip in the passport holds all the entry/exit date.  When they re-enter the USA, they'll be "checked out" of the UK. 

Do you think there would be an issue if they flew out of UK on 19th March, then went onwards to Ireland or Berlin, or Madrid for another few weeks, and then got back to the US maybe 2 weeks later?