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Topic: The Helsinki Summit, anyone care to defend the Traitor in Chief?  (Read 3059 times)

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The Helsinki Summit, anyone care to defend the Traitor in Chief?
« on: September 02, 2018, 09:37:31 PM »
In the words of John Brennan, who led the CIA during President Obama’s second term:
"Donald Trump’s press conference performance in Helsinki rises to & exceeds the threshold of “high crimes & misdemeanors.” It was nothing short of treasonous. Not only were Trump’s comments imbecilic, he is wholly in the pocket of Putin. Republican Patriots: Where are you???"


Senator John McCain:  “one of the most disgraceful performances by an American president in memory” and said that taken in combination with his “bombastic and erratic conduct” with allies, it represented “a recent low point in the history of the American presidency.”

“No prior president has ever abased himself more abjectly before a tyrant. Not only did President Trump fail to speak the truth about an adversary; but speaking for America to the world, our president failed to defend all that makes us who we are—a republic of free people dedicated to the cause of liberty at home and abroad,”

I'd like to hear the response from some of our Republican members on the board.  How are you not demanding Trump be impeached immediately?   How do you justify this to yourself? 


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Re: The Helsinki Summit, anyone care to defend the Traitor in Chief?
« Reply #1 on: September 02, 2018, 11:13:49 PM »
You won’t hear a defense of it. You can’t defend it. They’ll be quiet and hope everyone forgets. Because, it doesn’t matter how low they go or how morally bankrupt they are; they’re in power and won’t give that up. It just goes to show that all that high moral BS they’re always prattling on about means nothing. It’s all for show.

The congressional republicans have no moral backbone. Otherwise, the president who openly admitted to a felony on a television interview; not to mention assaulting women, would already be impeached.


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Re: The Helsinki Summit, anyone care to defend the Traitor in Chief?
« Reply #2 on: September 02, 2018, 11:28:28 PM »
In the words of John Brennan, who led the CIA during President Obama’s second term:
"Donald Trump’s press conference performance in Helsinki rises to & exceeds the threshold of “high crimes & misdemeanors.” It was nothing short of treasonous. Not only were Trump’s comments imbecilic, he is wholly in the pocket of Putin. Republican Patriots: Where are you???"


Senator John McCain:  “one of the most disgraceful performances by an American president in memory” and said that taken in combination with his “bombastic and erratic conduct” with allies, it represented “a recent low point in the history of the American presidency.”

“No prior president has ever abased himself more abjectly before a tyrant. Not only did President Trump fail to speak the truth about an adversary; but speaking for America to the world, our president failed to defend all that makes us who we are—a republic of free people dedicated to the cause of liberty at home and abroad,”

I'd like to hear the response from some of our Republican members on the board.  How are you not demanding Trump be impeached immediately?   How do you justify this to yourself?
Since you want to do this in a different spot in order to avoid crowding out the period of reflection on McCain...

I don’t like what he did.

He’d just made a show of pushing on NATO for funding with a deal in place before the trip to do it.

Then he swung by the UK saying what the EU has been doing to erect barriers to global competition is unacceptable and punishes the people least able to afford it with their good intentions and social engineering gone wrong. We are gratified to see our greatest ally turning again to the free market. America is ready to rapidly negotiate a fair bilateral deal with unprecedented cooperation and access that’ll not only replace anything lost by exiting the EU but fire the UK economy off like a rocket for generations, yet never interfering in sovereignty. All they have to do is preserve their ability to meet global rather than EU standards and come to the table with an open mind. We’d start this conversation right now if the UK wants. We could have an agreement in principle ready to execute the moment of exit if that’s what the UK wants.

The third leg was meeting Russia. He should have made a show of confronting Putin on attempts to influence the election, and sought a bilateral agreement not to try to interfere in each other’s elections in the future. In principle that should have been epically easy to get. Especially since we interfere in their elections far far more than they do in ours.

Instead, he did what he did, and that was not particularly politically astute given the domestic politics.

In the real world though, Trump ran on a position that our foreign policy is outdated. The Soviets have been gone for decades. The Russian economy is smaller than several US states. The fact that Putin is a dick and has done some bad things, is true, but not the priority.

They have lots of nuke laying around, but that makes it more important that they feel secure with a buffer around them and have a successful economy lest they descend into chaos and control of those things be lost. They’re actively and effectively combating Islamic extremism at home and around the world including in Syria. We have more to gain from cooperating with the enemy of our enemy than growing the next bin laden to oppose them when we have nothing to gain. NATO is if not obsolete then aligned facing the wrong set of threats. We do need to rejigger our forces within nato and continue to evaluate what balance of power we position in that line versus others. The EU has changed from an economic trade alliance that followed the Marshall plan and served as a market for US goods, to now being an economic rival to the US. As they continue to broaden unification, now including a unified military, it’s clear they’re incrementally becoming the United States of Europe that several of their past and present leaders have advocated for. US interests are not what they were 50 years ago while that process continues to move forward. It was Obama who sought to pivot away from Europe and away from a Russian threat, and towards Asia. China is very clearly the superpower threat intent on toppling western values and imposing their economic will. That is where our attention is truly needed.

You may see some wisdom in that or not. I don’t care. It is a rational logical legitimate policy position for the US to take. It doesn’t require being bought off or blackmailed by the Russians to think or say such things. It is not remotely treasonous to take those positions.

We’ve always made the mistake of preparing for the last war and been caught flat footed when the next one isn’t what we’ve spent all our effort preparing for. We should not pay the very high price of making that mistake again.

Those emphasizing the threat of Russia as the biggest out there and closed off to reevaluating our relationship, commitment, and commitment of resources to NATO, the ones saying western democracy or western values when truly those things are vastly different when not measured next to a common enemy of the soviet threat to the world... those are the same people who benefit from subsiding the EU and shorting the US economy. While that might make a good investment for a few, it isn’t good for the people at large.

So the President, who is the polar opposite of a great communicator, doesn’t take expert guidance well, and spouts off dumb crap without thinking... he could have made a trifecta of that trip and come back with the midterms on lock. Instead, he screwed it up.

That’s not great, but it’s also really irrelevant to the underlying strategic and economic policy, which makes tons of sense. If that guy could get out of his own way, keep his mouth shut, read a teleprompter, and let results speak for themselves... he’d be killing it right now.


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Re: The Helsinki Summit, anyone care to defend the Traitor in Chief?
« Reply #3 on: September 02, 2018, 11:36:34 PM »
I read about a certain razor today. It basically said ‘don’t be so quick to assign actions to malice which stupidity provides a better answer for’.

I like your long winded attempt at an explanation. However, trump ain’t that smart. His people aren’t that smart. His people were even surprised by his actions. The guy can barely remember his last lie. This is not some part of a well thought out political policy or stance. It is the actions of someone beholden to special interests; in this case Russia. I think this provides a much better explanation. Especially in light of the frequent conviction of trump cronies.


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Re: The Helsinki Summit, anyone care to defend the Traitor in Chief?
« Reply #4 on: September 03, 2018, 12:58:08 AM »
I read about a certain razor today. It basically said ‘don’t be so quick to assign actions to malice which stupidity provides a better answer for’.

I like your long winded attempt at an explanation. However, trump ain’t that smart. His people aren’t that smart. His people were even surprised by his actions. The guy can barely remember his last lie. This is not some part of a well thought out political policy or stance. It is the actions of someone beholden to special interests; in this case Russia. I think this provides a much better explanation. Especially in light of the frequent conviction of trump cronies.


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People who win popularity contests, however they’re judged, are never the smartest people in the room. They may be more or less effective at presenting a facade to the public, but even that isn’t very determinative if who wins. The percentage of their win or loss that’s controlled by policy positions comes from smart people. You’re a fool if you don’t think there are very smart people working in the admin. As there are in every admin.

The strategic policy position I laid out above is smart. It does challenge the orthodoxy across party lines, it is a disruptor, and it at least forces healthy consideration of our strategic interests.

That is precisely the strategic position the president very openly ran on. Maybe you don’t want to hear it from him. Maybe you’d prefer to believe he’d take that position because he’s bought off or compromised or a traitor or stupid. That might fit what you want to believe about him and possibly the Republican Party or some portion of it anyway.

Okay, so let’s put that aside. I’m not bought off or compromised. I’ve held all sorts of clearances and have plenty experience from boots on the ground to policy. I’m pretty well educated and not a moron. I also don’t like the president on a personal level, so we can agree on that. But I support the policy position I stated above. I don’t trust the Russians farther than I can throw a ballistic missile submarine, but that doesn’t mean I’d be unwilling to cooperate with them in Syria if a strategic compromise can be reached to restore balance as an end state. I don’t have a problem cooperating with them to check Islamic extremism globally, so we can get that anchor off our efforts and focus fully on checking China, where I’d also appreciate Russia’s cooperation.

If that’s a reasonable position for me to take. If we could have a reasonable logical conversation about that position that doesn’t involve running out of intellectually honest arguments and instead calling each other traitors. Then it should be possible for the president to do the same thing without your incredible dislike for him personally &/or politically turning it away from a reasonable logical pragmatic intellectually honest conversation.

Like you, I’d rather have that conversation with someone who is a better communicator, and I’d rather not have the suspend my personal disrespect for the person I’m having to engage in a conversation with mutual respect. But you play with the cards that get dealt. You can’t let your emotions & biases close you off to what’s coming across the table. It’s real useful to shut your ears, blame stupidity/treason/etc, and attack the messenger rather than deal with the message. But we can never do that. We have to be bigger than the pettiness and deal with the substance even if we hate the package.




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Re: The Helsinki Summit, anyone care to defend the Traitor in Chief?
« Reply #5 on: September 03, 2018, 07:21:31 AM »
Then he peed in a potted plant at Windsor.
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Re: The Helsinki Summit, anyone care to defend the Traitor in Chief?
« Reply #6 on: September 03, 2018, 08:22:00 AM »
Nobody is saying that it Is treasonous to support the position that our relations with Russia should improve.  That’s not rocket science and every s President has attempted to do that.  Although in Trump’s case I agree with the previous poster that Trump is incapable of even reading your long winded explanation of this policy, much less understanding it.  He just likes hanging out with powerful dictators.

What is treasonous and you somehow forgot to mention, is that while the Russians are attacking our democrat processes at an unprecedented level , Trump openly shows he doesn’t cares because he is the benificiary. 

As usual, your response has been an authoritative sounding but nevertheless irrelevant explanation of something else, hoping that it will serve as an excuse for Trump’s behaviour.  Along with usual declaration that you dislike Trump, followed by an explanation that stretches credulity to the limit . 

I also think you are wrong about this White House staff and the people who are surrounding the President and actually doing the day to day work.  Normally, they would be professionals as you think, but all of those people have quit or been fired.  Wouldn’t you quit if your new boss was going to be an openly corrupt buffoon and if you stayed, your reward would either be a tainted CV or possibly even a jail term?

I'm afraid the white house staff you are relying on have been replaced with desperately incompetent reality TV rejects.  For evidence of this, I submit the ridiculous summit with North Korea.



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Re: The Helsinki Summit, anyone care to defend the Traitor in Chief?
« Reply #7 on: September 04, 2018, 06:31:54 AM »
Nobody is saying that it Is treasonous to support the position that our relations with Russia should improve.  That’s not rocket science and every s President has attempted to do that.  Although in Trump’s case I agree with the previous poster that Trump is incapable of even reading your long winded explanation of this policy, much less understanding it.  He just likes hanging out with powerful dictators.

What is treasonous and you somehow forgot to mention, is that while the Russians are attacking our democrat processes at an unprecedented level , Trump openly shows he doesn’t cares because he is the benificiary. 

As usual, your response has been an authoritative sounding but nevertheless irrelevant explanation of something else, hoping that it will serve as an excuse for Trump’s behaviour.  Along with usual declaration that you dislike Trump, followed by an explanation that stretches credulity to the limit . 

I also think you are wrong about this White House staff and the people who are surrounding the President and actually doing the day to day work.  Normally, they would be professionals as you think, but all of those people have quit or been fired.  Wouldn’t you quit if your new boss was going to be an openly corrupt buffoon and if you stayed, your reward would either be a tainted CV or possibly even a jail term?

I'm afraid the white house staff you are relying on have been replaced with desperately incompetent reality TV rejects.  For evidence of this, I submit the ridiculous summit with North Korea.
It is not unprecedented. It’s significantly less resources than they put into the prior cycle. Far far less than the Chinese put in. Less than the Ukrainians put in. A ton less than the US has wasted trying to unseat Putin or back reformers in Iran. The difference is it was more visible.

Those things have been with us since the Eisenhower admin and in a different form back to what the east India company and beyond. They usually don’t matter because they’re counterbalanced by competing efforts from other countries & interests, and because swing votes are not actually very easy to influence with propaganda. Those that are, they’ve already made up their mind.

It would seem you’ve developed for yourself a caricature of prominent aides and members of cabinet who, like the president, you’d like to make into something they’re not. Maybe that helps you to reject logical alternatives to your too easy explanation that they’re all dumb crooks & traitors. Reality is somewhat different. And yes, it must be terrifying to fight for what you believe in during public service only to be targeted by perpetual investigation if you don’t fall into line.


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Re: The Helsinki Summit, anyone care to defend the Traitor in Chief?
« Reply #8 on: September 04, 2018, 08:07:17 AM »
It would seem you’ve developed for yourself a caricature of prominent aides and members of cabinet who, like the president, you’d like to make into something they’re not. Maybe that helps you to reject logical alternatives to your too easy explanation that they’re all dumb crooks & traitors. Reality is somewhat different.

No, reality is they are all dumb crooks and traitors.
Manafort = guilty
Cohen = guilty
Gates = guilty
Papadopolous = guilty
Flynn = resigned after caught lying to the Vice President about his communications with Russian government
Porter = resigned after domestic abuse allegations from former wives
Scaramucci = resigned after making derogatory statements about other Trump administration officials
Hicks = admitted lying for Trump to House Intelligence Committee
Price = resigned under investigation for misuse of government resources
Pruitt = resigned under investigation for misuse of government resources
Carson = under investigation for misuse of government resources
Mnuchin = under investigation for misuse of government resources

Those are just the big names. There's a lot more stupidity and criminality where that came from.


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Re: The Helsinki Summit, anyone care to defend the Traitor in Chief?
« Reply #9 on: September 04, 2018, 08:14:10 AM »
It is not unprecedented. It’s significantly less resources than they put into the prior cycle. Far far less than the Chinese put in. Less than the Ukrainians put in. A ton less than the US has wasted trying to unseat Putin or back reformers in Iran. The difference is it was more visible.

Those things have been with us since the Eisenhower admin and in a different form back to what the east India company and beyond. They usually don’t matter because they’re counterbalanced by competing efforts from other countries & interests, and because swing votes are not actually very easy to influence with propaganda. Those that are, they’ve already made up their mind.

It would seem you’ve developed for yourself a caricature of prominent aides and members of cabinet who, like the president, you’d like to make into something they’re not. Maybe that helps you to reject logical alternatives to your too easy explanation that they’re all dumb crooks & traitors. Reality is somewhat different. And yes, it must be terrifying to fight for what you believe in during public service only to be targeted by perpetual investigation if you don’t fall into line.


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I'm afraid that I'm having a hard time believing that the Chinese or the Ukrainians invested more resources in interfering with the last election than the Russians.  Evidence is the indictments against members of the Russian government for that specific event.  Could you send me some links about that assertion?

I'm still not satisfied that you have addressed the point of this thread : the President of the United States is not defending us against enemies that are attacking our democracy because it benefits him personally to allow it to happen.  Justify to me why you are not waving a sign in front of the White House?  Could there be a more significant crime committed by any President?

Come on, we all saw it with our own eyes. Trump is many things, but he is not subtle.  That day in Helsinki he let us all know that he's a traitor.  Some have continued to support him anyway, but the rest of us haven't forgotten.  Which side are you on?
So far, your responses have been
1. it's a good policy to improve our relationship with Russia
2. what about the Chinese, what about the Ukrainians, what about us, what about Eisenhower?  Surely because election tampering happened before we should ignore all of it and it can't be important that Trump ignores it

I'm afraid both of those responses just aren't good enough. 


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Re: The Helsinki Summit, anyone care to defend the Traitor in Chief?
« Reply #10 on: September 04, 2018, 08:22:16 AM »
No, reality is they are all dumb crooks and traitors.
Manafort = guilty
Cohen = guilty
Gates = guilty
Papadopolous = guilty
Flynn = resigned after caught lying to the Vice President about his communications with Russian government
Porter = resigned after domestic abuse allegations from former wives
Scaramucci = resigned after making derogatory statements about other Trump administration officials
Hicks = admitted lying for Trump to House Intelligence Committee
Price = resigned under investigation for misuse of government resources
Pruitt = resigned under investigation for misuse of government resources
Carson = under investigation for misuse of government resources
Mnuchin = under investigation for misuse of government resources

Those are just the big names. There's a lot more stupidity and criminality where that came from.

Excellent reply.  Just to expand on one of these, Scarrsmuchi was so unfit for his position that he didn't even last two weeks before calling a random journalist and trashing all his colleagues in the filthiest terms possible.  Why?  Because he's so stupid he didn't know it was a bad idea!  And I'm the one who has a caricature in his mind? 

Really Mr Texas, when Trump himself admits that he hires reality show rejects to be TOP WHITE HOUSE OFFICIALS simply because they say good things about him, you actually believe that the President is surrounded by people who know what they are doing?


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Re: The Helsinki Summit, anyone care to defend the Traitor in Chief?
« Reply #11 on: September 04, 2018, 11:11:07 AM »
I love all the mental gymnastics people go through to validate trump. All because he is the pinnacle of their ideology at the moment. We’re all guilty of something similar at times. But the capacity of imagination and depth of thought it must take to make trumps actions seem intelligent and good for the country is frankly out of my grasp.

This boob as golfed more then the president he bitched about golfing, cost the tax payer millions by taking every weekend in Margo-lar, reversed EPA regulations (although costly for business and by extension consumers, usually good for the country), sold off federal lands for special interests, provide Putin with the means to black mail US policy, caged immigrant kids, grabbed undisclosed amounts of *bleep* (whether invited or not), paid off mistresses (committing a felony), bragged about it on TV, validated nazi’s on tv, literally lied about the meeting with the Russians on tv; after trying to cover it up.

This guy is frankly bat shite crazy. If your attempting to make his policies seem like a well thought out plan to ‘shake up the system’, your as creative as the alien guy on history channel.

 
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Re: The Helsinki Summit, anyone care to defend the Traitor in Chief?
« Reply #12 on: September 04, 2018, 05:54:46 PM »
I love all the mental gymnastics people go through to validate trump. All because he is the pinnacle of their ideology at the moment. We’re all guilty of something similar at times. But the capacity of imagination and depth of thought it must take to make trumps actions seem intelligent and good for the country is frankly out of my grasp.

This boob as golfed more then the president he bitched about golfing, cost the tax payer millions by taking every weekend in Margo-lar, reversed EPA regulations (although costly for business and by extension consumers, usually good for the country), sold off federal lands for special interests, provide Putin with the means to black mail US policy, caged immigrant kids, grabbed undisclosed amounts of *bleep* (whether invited or not), paid off mistresses (committing a felony), bragged about it on TV, validated nazi’s on tv, literally lied about the meeting with the Russians on tv; after trying to cover it up.

This guy is frankly bat shite crazy. If your attempting to make his policies seem like a well thought out plan to ‘shake up the system’, your as creative as the alien guy on history channel.

I really struggle with this, because I don't want to believe that %40 of Americans are stupid racists.  I tell myself that a certain percentage are racists, a certain percentage are just a bit selfish and are happy that the economy is doing well and aren't really worried about Democracy, and a certain percentage just aren't interested in politics and therefore make their decisions based on low information. 

I'm waiting for one of our Republicans to come along and post an argument that convinces me that a reasonable person could conclude that Trump is not a traitor.  I'd be thrilled to get to the point where reasonable people could have different ideas on politics, like it used to be in the pre-Trump days. 
« Last Edit: September 04, 2018, 05:58:20 PM by jimbocz »


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Re: The Helsinki Summit, anyone care to defend the Traitor in Chief?
« Reply #13 on: September 04, 2018, 06:00:52 PM »
I really struggle with this, because I don't want to believe that %40 of Americans are stupid racists.  I tell myself that a certain percentage are racists, a certain percentage are just a bit selfish and are happy that the economy is doing well and aren't really worried about Democracy, and a certain percentage just aren't interested in politics and therefore make their decisions based on low information. 

I'm waiting for one of our Republicans to come along and post an argument that convinces me that a reasonable person could conclude that Trump is not

I don’t think 40% if the country are stupid racists. There’s a larger percentage then you think there is though. In an economy in decline (real purchasing power of individuals and disposable income), people are going to find ‘the other’ to blame. So although a majority aren’t stupid racists, they let the stupid racists go unchecked because they couldn’t be bothered. That is the biggest crime though. There was this great video real from the late 40’s early 50’s where they have a guy on a soap box spewing mildly racists stuff. The main character is feeling sympathetic until he starts talking to a foreigner next to him. This guy basically tells him, don’t fall for the ‘this group of people is the problem’ argument because it grows. Once they take care of that group they move on. Because the core problem that’s generating the friction isn’t solved; they’ve just removed a group. He says at the end there will be no one left to speak up for you when they come.. it was shockingly salient for today’s times. Wish I could find it.


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Re: The Helsinki Summit, anyone care to defend the Traitor in Chief?
« Reply #14 on: September 04, 2018, 06:45:50 PM »
I love all the mental gymnastics people go through to validate trump..


You nailed it. Can literally only describe it as mental gymnastics.



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