Need a recommendation immigration lawyer

Well, still nothing from the law offices.

The EU people now say that since the UK hasn't actually DONE anything to the Daughter at this point, there's nothing they can do. Of course, once they did do something to her, there wouldn't be time for the EU people to do diddly as she'd be on a plane back to the States (or elsewhere).

Have moved on to my MP via my Scottish MP, who has formally requested the UK MP to investigate.

I would really, just once, like good news. Succinct, uncomplicated, un-subclaused, and clear.    I have the pre-settlement letters in front of me. They state that she can rely on her EU rights until, basically, the UK is out of the EU.  It states clearly we can work, attend school, etc., and don't require government permission to do so. There is NO reference in them about her having to remain my financial dependent to the degree that she cannot work at all.  So if there's a prohibition on that buried in the Home Office employee guidance (which there appears to be), anyone who took the pre-settlement letters at face value could have a nasty shock in five years.    I do hope they don't take months and months, and then write back that some other office has to handle it.

Ah. Yesterday the UK MP said they'd help, and were sending us a form to sign. It arrived today. (!!!)
It's also been sent back with the required info.

MP has offered his sympathies, and has contacted the H.O. for a written response, which he will pass along to us when it arrives. (Bless him.)

So far, by my tally (which could be faulty), I've got five sources telling us she can work, including one being that it is explicitly stated in the "Pre-Settlement" letter sent to us by the H.O.  I've also got two saying she has to remain my financial dependent. One of which is language buried deep in the EU Settlement Scheme implementation guidelines in the H.O.'s procedures manual.

We are aware that even if we get something in writing, it can change. But at least we'll know what we're supposed to be doing at this point. Later changes we'll deal with as they arise. The MP seems to be a good guy.

Well, ok, after sending the University a letter that quoted the various laws and regulations, the "Home/EU" tuition status for next year is sorted. (Yes, she's "home" fees.)   That's the difference between about £5K a year and £18K a year in fees.

Now we just have to wait for word from the MP on the other stuff....

Well, ok, after sending the University a letter that quoted the various laws and regulations, the "Home/EU" tuition status for next year is sorted. (Yes, she's "home" fees.)   That's the difference between about £5K a year and £18K a year in fees.

Well done! 

Next year being 2020/21. But it's better than not!

Now, we just need to know about the work/can't work thing....

OH FFS!

Ok, we asked our MP to get something in writing from the Home Office about the Daughter's ability to work in the UK. This was to explicitly deal with the fact that she was over 21 when she applied to the EUSS, and applied as the adult NON-EU dependent child of an EU citizen. I have a sheaf of emails from various legal advisory services telling us that she has to remain my financial dependent, so any work she can do would be absolutely minimal (if she works at all). We were asking for clarification of that - so if she can work full-time to save up her Uni fees, she can go ahead and start working full time. Or not.

So here we are a month later, and we have them forwarding on this letter:

Thank you for your email correspondence of 5 June on behalf of Ms XXXXXX of XXXXXX, about the European Union Settlement Scheme (EUSS).

Ms XXXXXXX has been granted Pre-Settled Status (Limited Leave to Remain) under the EUSS. I can confirm that she would therefore be entitled to work in the UK for the duration of this period. All applicants granted Settled Status or Pre-Settled Status will be entitled to work in the UK.

Ms XXXXXX will need to apply for Settled Status once she has completed five years continued residency in the UK if she wishes to remain beyond the Limited Leave she has been granted.

Yours sincerely
XXXXX
MP Account Management Team
UK Visas and Immigration | Home Office
www.homeoffice.gov.uk

And an emailed note that they checked by phone and that  "following telephone conversations with the UKVI EU Settlement team, it appears that there are no restrictions related to age."  They didn't mention anything about being non-EU, and it's not in writing. So if Daughter goes to work on the basis of this information, and it's wrong, she's screwed. The UKVI/HO could come back and dispute her being legal to work full time. The letter does not expressly state that, and a third-hand phone conversation isn't going to hold water anywhere.

I've asked if they could please get something specifically addressing her dependency status  in writing.  Jezzzzus H. Keyrist, I might just as well have written to the HO anyway - they outed the Daughter's name and address, although we requested that it be kept confidential.

EDIT:  The MP's office has written back. They had a telephone conversation with the individual who wrote the letter. It was that person's understanding that there should be no restrictions on the Daughter working, now that she had pre-settled status. Of course, doing so would invalidate her EU rights, but UK rights would be at play at that point. Apparently.  Now, if the UK actually leaves the EU, that's no problem. If she never wants to enter another EU country as my dependent, that's no problem. If they don't change the rules on her, that's no problem.  If by some fluke the UK remains in the EU, it would be weird, but no problem as long as they didn't scrap the EUSS.

The MP's office is forwarding back to the HO the sheaf of emails I've gotten from lawyers and advice services saying she shouldn't work, and requesting a detailed letter that would cover the Daughter's backside if she gives up her EU right of being here as my dependent if she takes a full-time professional job to save up and then get on the track to get a funded PhD someday. It might not hold up in court, but it would prove "good faith" and all that. She says that if they later backtrack and want to throw her out, fine, she'll leave as there are other places that do want her.  Hopefully that wouldn't happen.

Of course, the Uni had said that as of next year she would be granted "Home/EU" status as long as she still holds an EU FM card. If the UK falls out of the EU in October, she'll still have the card alright, but it wont' be valid. She will have been in the country for the requisite three years, but won't have "settled" status, which is what they require under the regular UK immigration system to get "home" fees. Oy. I see another paperwork battle coming, in the future, with the Uni over that.... Maybe Denmark isn't that cold, really....

Nada yet, but I expect it'll be another three or four weeks.

We finally did get a response this week to our status request from the Irish naturalization service that we sent over to them in May (the request for info in May). We asked if they had everything they needed, a warning that one of the referees was seriously ill and so if they wanted to talk to them they'd better go ahead and do so, and could they please tell us what "stage" the application was. (There are three stages. Application, then stage 2 where they check your references and information and go down their checklist, then stage 3 where they either deny it or send it to the Minister for consideration for approval. If it's approved, you send more money and get to go through the ceremony.)

So the response was "we have everything" and "it's still processing." (What's to process? They haven't checked with her references. They have the police "good conduct" letters. There's really nothing left to check.) And that they could not tell us when we can expect to hear anything.   But nothing about what stage it is in. That's something we've come up against soooo many times when writing to any entity in Ireland. You ask a question, and they don't answer it. Or, sometimes they answer a question you haven't asked but ignore the one you have asked. It's maddening!

Question:  Is it day or night?
Answer:  Marshmallows are not a fruit.

Oy. 

Ok. So I just received an email from our MP. It says that the Daughter is legally able to work in the UK, and to reference the attached letter from the Home Office. Unfortunately, there was no attachment. And it's after-hours now, so I won't get to read it until tomorrow.  If, as the MP states, the Daughter can work without any constraints, that changes the landscape of things in our household by lightyears. Fingers are crossed. I'll know in the morning, I guess. (I hope.)

EDIT:  Looking at the EU Appendix of the Home Office regulations, which have changed slightly from the first version I saw, they say (bold is mine):

EU4. Where a person has been granted limited leave to enter or remain under this Appendix:
· They must continue to meet the eligibility requirements for that leave which they met at the date of application (except for any which related to their dependency on another person) or meet other eligibility requirements for limited leave to enter or remain in accordance with paragraph EU14; and
· They remain able to apply for indefinite leave to enter or remain under this Appendix and will be granted this where the requirements in paragraph EU2 are met.


and EU 14 is revised to say:

EU14. The applicant meets the eligibility requirements for limited leave to enter or remain where the Secretary of State is satisfied, including (where applicable) by the required evidence of family relationship, that, at the date of application, condition 1 or 2 set out in the following table is met:

Condition   Is met where:
1.   (a) The applicant is:
(i) a relevant EEA citizen; or
(ii) a family member of a relevant EEA citizen; or
(iii) a family member who has retained the right of residence by virtue of a relationship with a relevant EEA citizen; or
(iv) a person with a derivative right to reside; or
(v) a person with a Zambrano right to reside; and
(b) The applicant is not eligible for indefinite leave to enter or remain under this Appendix solely because they have completed a continuous qualifying period of less than five years


Hmmmm. 

Still no letter. They seem to have gone on vacation. The assistant will be back on "Monday the 22nd at the earliest" and....  Seriously, I want to see that letter. Arrrrrgh!

What the MP said the HO said was "all applicants granted Settled or Pre-Settled Status under this scheme are entitled to work in the UK and there is no distinction under the EUSS between age groups."  Which is just lovely. BUT NOT THE ISSUE. The Issue is does she lose family status and the ability to apply for settlement in a few years if she works enough to not be considered my dependent, which means she would no longer be my family member.  The EU11 regulations say she has to have been my family member for the relevant period (aka 5 years). THE EU4 regulations say dependency doesn't matter.

Just one line. That's all I want. On official letterhead. "Yes, she can be financially independent and still qualify for settlement at 5 years" per regulation EU4 or "No, if she becomes financially independent, she will not be eligible for settlement status per regulation EU11." So we can flipping plan our lives.

I'm thinking it's going to be EU4, though. And the Daughter is already looking for work. Which is really, really good. And if it turns out down the road that it was EU11, fine. We'll leave. But I think it's gonna be EU4. 

Still nothing.

I'm going to phone them.

[Edit - no answer. Wrote again.]

I really hope she's allowed to work, I hope you get the clarity soon!

Sent from my Pixel 3a using Tapatalk

Well, we have the HO letter. I still think they are sidestepping the precise question we asked, but the response is: I can confirm that under the European Union Settlement Scheme there is absolutely no differentiation between age groups as to who can and can’t work. All applicants granted either Settled Status or Pre-Settled Status are entitled to work in the UK and there is no restriction on this.

I believe there may be a misunderstanding in that under EEA Regulations a person over 21 who is working may not be considered to be a dependant. However, the EUSS does not fall under the EEA Regulations and therefore is not affected by this. Leave granted under the EUSS falls under the UK Immigration Rules and Ms XXX is free to seek employment should she wish to do so.


The actual EUSS rules as published are:

EU4. Where a person has been granted limited leave to enter or remain under this Appendix: · They must continue to meet the eligibility requirements for that leave which they met at the date of application (except for any which related to their dependency on another person) or meet other eligibility requirements for limited leave to enter or remain in accordance with paragraph EU14; and · They remain able to apply for indefinite leave to enter or remain under this Appendix and will be granted this where the requirements in paragraph EU2 are met.


EU2. The applicant will be granted indefinite leave to enter (where the application is made outside the UK) or indefinite leave to remain (where the application is made within the UK) where:
· A valid application has been made in accordance with paragraph EU9;
· The applicant meets the eligibility requirements for indefinite leave to enter or remain in accordance with paragraph EU11 or EU12; and
· The applicant is not to be refused on grounds of suitability in accordance w ith paragraph EU15 or EU16.

EU 11. The applicant meets the eligibility requirements for indefinite leave to enter or remain as a relevant EEA citizen or their family member (or as a person with a derivative right to reside or a person with a Zambrano right to reside) where the Secretary of State is satisfied, including (where applicable) by the required evidence of family relationship, that, at the date of application, one of conditions 1 to 7 set out in the following table is met:...

3 (a) The applicant is:
(i) a relevant EEA citizen; or
(ii) a family member of a relevant EEA citizen; or
(iii) a family member who has retained the right of residence by virtue of a relationship with a relevant EEA citizen; or
(iv) a person with a derivative right to reside; or
(v) a person with a Zambrano right to reside; and
(b) The applicant has completed a continuous qualifying period of five years in any (or any combination) of those categories; and
(c) Since then no supervening event has occurred


Definitions from Appendix:

family member of a relevant EEA citizen
a person who has satisfied the Secretary of State, including by the required evidence of family relationship, that they are (and for the relevant period have been), or (as the case may be) for the relevant period (or at the relevant time) they were:
(a) the spouse or civil partner of a relevant EEA citizen, and:
(i) the marriage was contracted or the civil partnership was formed before the specified date; or
(ii) the applicant was the durable partner of the relevant EEA citizen before the specified date (the definition of ‘durable partner’ in this table being met before that date rather than at the date of application) and the partnership remained durable at the specified date; or
(b) the durable partner of a relevant EEA citizen, and:
(i) the partnership was formed and was durable before the specified date; and
(ii) the partnership remains durable at the date of application (or it did so for the relevant period or immediately before the death of the relevant EEA citizen); or
(c) the child or dependent parent of a relevant EEA citizen; or
(d) the child or dependent parent of the spouse or civil partner of a relevant EEA citizen, as described in sub-paragraph (a) above; or
(e) resident in the UK before the specified date as the dependent relative of a relevant EEA citizen (or of their spouse or civil partner, where the application for the relevant document referred to in the entry for ‘dependent relative’ in this table was made before 1 February 2017) and that family relationship and the person’s dependency (or, as the case may be, their membership of the household or their strict need for personal care on serious health grounds) existed before the specified date (or, as the case may be, before 1 February 2017)

child
(a) the direct descendant under the age of 21 years of a relevant EEA citizen (or of a qualifying British citizen) or of their spouse or civil partner; or
(b)(i) the direct descendant aged 21 years or over of a relevant EEA citizen (or of a qualifying British citizen) or of their spouse or civil partner; and
(ii) dependent on the relevant EEA citizen (or on the qualifying British citizen) or on their spouse or civil partner, unless the applicant was previously granted limited leave to enter or remain under this Appendix as a child on the basis that sub-paragraph (a) above applied (or under its equivalent in the Islands on that basis)

‘dependent’ means here that:
(a) having regard to their financial and social conditions, or health, the applicant cannot, or (as the case may be) for the relevant period could not, meet their essential living needs (in whole or in part) without the financial or other material support of the relevant EEA citizen (or of the qualifying British citizen) or of their spouse or civil partner; and
(b) such support is, or (as the case may be) was, being provided to the applicant by the relevant EEA citizen (or by the qualifying British citizen) or by their spouse or civil partner; and
(c) there is no need to determine the reasons for that dependence or for the recourse to that support


required evidence of family relationship
in the case of:
(a) a spouse without a documented right of permanent residence – a relevant document as the spouse of the relevant EEA citizen (or of the qualifying British citizen), or a valid document of record of a marriage recognised under the law of England and Wales, Scotland or Northern Ireland or of the Islands;
(b) a civil partner without a documented right of permanent residence – a relevant document as the civil partner of the relevant EEA citizen (or of the qualifying British citizen); a valid civil partnership certificate recognised under the law of England and Wales, Scotland or Northern Ireland or under any equivalent legislation in the Islands; or the valid overseas registration document for a same sex relationship which is entitled to be treated as a civil partnership under the Civil Partnership Act 2004 or under any equivalent legislation in the Islands;
(c) a child without a documented right of permanent residence – a relevant document issued on the basis of the relevant family relationship or their evidence of birth and, where the applicant is aged 21 years or over and was not previously granted limited leave to enter or remain under this Appendix (or under its equivalent in the Islands) as a child, evidence which satisfies the Secretary of State that sub-paragraph (b)(ii) of the entry for ‘child’ in this table is met;

....

So, it's circular. It may well be that later on they deny her the right to settled status based on her not being a family member by the EUSS's definition. If so, we'll take our marbles and go home after raising holy hell about having been told it was permissible by the HO. Otherwise, until then we have printed the HO letter, and the MP's advice emails, and will wave them around at anyone who challenges her right to work. The option to do so making all the difference in the world in our household.

I'll consider it a qualified win.

(Pwew. I can cancel the move-to-the-States quotes now.) 

Your bolded point in EU2 says:
· The applicant meets the eligibility requirements for indefinite leave to enter or remain in accordance with paragraph EU11 or EU12;


You then quoted EU11, but left out EU12.  As EU11 is about eligibility as an EEA family memeber, and HO are making the distinction between EEA and EUSS, I'd be curious to know what EU12 says.

Your bolded point in EU2 says:
· The applicant meets the eligibility requirements for indefinite leave to enter or remain in accordance with paragraph EU11 or EU12;


You then quoted EU11, but left out EU12.  As EU11 is about eligibility as an EEA family memeber, and HO are making the distinction between EEA and EUSS, I'd be curious to know what EU12 says.

Family member of a Brit.    https://www.gov.uk/guidance/immigration-rules/immigration-rules-appendix-eu

Persons eligible for indefinite leave to enter or remain as a family member of a qualifying British citizen
EU12. The applicant meets the eligibility requirements for indefinite leave to enter or remain as a family member of a qualifying British citizen, or as a family member who has retained the right of residence by virtue of a relationship with a qualifying British citizen, where the Secretary of State is satisfied, including by the required evidence of family relationship, that, at the date of application, one of conditions 1 to 4 set out in the following table is met:

Condition   Is met where:
1.   (a) The applicant is:
(i) a family member of a qualifying British citizen; or
(ii) a family member who has retained the right of residence by virtue of a relationship with a qualifying British citizen; and
(b) The applicant has a documented right of permanent residence; and
(c) No supervening event has occurred
2.   (a) The applicant is:
(i) a family member of a qualifying British citizen; or
(ii) a family member who has retained the right of residence by virtue of a relationship with a qualifying British citizen; and
(b) There is valid evidence of their indefinite leave to enter or remain
3.   (a) The applicant is:
(i) a family member of a qualifying British citizen; or
(ii) a family member who has retained the right of residence by virtue of a relationship with a qualifying British citizen; and
(b) The applicant has completed a continuous qualifying period in the UK of five years in either (or any combination) of those categories; and
(c) The applicant was, for any period of residence as a family member of a qualifying British citizen relied upon under sub-paragraph (b), in the UK lawfully by virtue of regulation 9(1) to (6) of the EEA Regulations (regardless of whether in the UK the qualifying British citizen was a qualified person under regulation 6 of the EEA Regulations); and
(d) Since completing the continuous qualifying period of five years, no supervening event has occurred
4.   (a) The applicant is a child under the age of 21 years of the spouse or civil partner of the qualifying British citizen (and the marriage or civil partnership was formed before the specified date); and
(b) The applicant is in the UK lawfully by virtue of regulation 9(1) to (6) of the EEA Regulations (regardless of whether in the UK the qualifying British citizen is a qualified person under regulation 6 of the EEA Regulations); and
(c) The spouse or civil partner has been or is being granted indefinite leave to enter or remain under this Appendix