To be, or not to be

After many years living in England, over 35 years, I recently addressed the question of dual nationality. Throughout my time here I have maintained my US citizenship even though crossing the Channel to France for my annual tobacco run would mean I had to face the immigration inquisition on my return. I've sifted through the various postings on this site, looked at the very useful links and spent some time considering whether or not I should consider dual nationality.

Many of the postings here look at the 'how', but I've found very little on the more esoteric, the 'why'.

Perhaps it's me, perhaps I grew up in a different time and things are different now. But it used to be when you made a contract, or gave your word of honour it meant something. So having read the comments made about dual nationality these seemed a little strange to me. I mean how many American's here at the UK Yankee site have pledged their  allegiants to the flag as children, sang the American national anthem or served within a US service that required an oath.

When I started my research into the dual nationality possibilities I had hoped I did so with an open mind, but now I don't think that was the case. As I looked at the merits and problems something just kept nagging at me, I spoke to my wife about it and said I couldn't really explain it, but as much as I care about the UK, I just can't bring myself to make an oath to another country, it would feel like a betrayal, like I would be breaking my word.

I've read the  arguments that holding a British pass-port would make life very much more convenient, there would be less worries about immigration particularly where mixed nationality families are concerned, and those that have real hardship with work permits having wed into the British family. But, it remains that I feel for all the problems that holding a single nationality brings, it makes my position clearer, there is no doubt as to my identity. My friends, both British and American here have never asked, or indeed would probably be amazed, that I looked at the question at all. They accept I am an American. In fact I would argue there has been more positive reasons to maintain this then there are to gain a dual status. For instance, there is something quite comforting in being a visitor, people tend to be more open to your views, they allow a greater leeway and tend to be a little more patient when you're having a bad day.

The question I ask myself, in the extreme unlikely event that the US and Britain went into conflict, which side would I choose? If America did something that affected the British in a negative way, who side would I defend. Answering a question like this often requires you to take a hypothetical and make it a reality in your mind. I would prefer not to take anyone's side, but that isn't always a choice if you're in a country that you are a citizen of. Sometimes the country makes that decision for you, as many British people found when the Vietnam war was on. It didn't matter that they were both British and a nationalized American, and irrespective of their views on the war, they were sent like any other American to fight an unjust war.

The advice from the Embassy and State Department is contradictive on this subject, furthermore, even though the INS has been disbanded, the notion of dual nationalism is not a recognised law, it's a code of conduct that can be changed on the whim of a world event.

As I've stated already, I have lived here a very long time, some might say I'm British by default . Perhaps I am. But my belief system is based on what I brought from America, and a respect for the contract and oaths I've made. These were not just words without meaning for me, when I promised my loyalty to the US as a sailor, when I restated my allegiants to a nation I did so because I meant it. America has not always been good to me, but it's my birth place and I still, not so naively believe our word should mean something and that honour still has a place in the world.

Re-reading my words I'm conflicted with the idea that perhaps times have changed, but I haven't. I'm afraid I like the concept and convenience of reliability, that when we give our word, it can relied upon to be the truth

Loftus,

Thank you for your thoughts and feelings on this.  I feel a bit of the same conflict as you do.  Next week I will be applying for Indefinite Leave to Remain.  I haven't really given a whole lot of thought or made a concrete decision on whether to apply for dual nationality or not.  I lean towards actually doing it but then, like you, I wonder what would happen in a conflict.  Would I have to choose?  Would dual nationality be protected?  

I haven't decided.  I've got children in the equation as well so I don't know.  

This is something that I think about from time to time.  Usually on election day.  I too am torn.  The whole thought of becoming a citizen of another country is something I have trouble with.  I did hear that they were thinking of introducing a pledge of allegiance to the queen for people who became citizens, and I know that is something that I could not physically do.  I'm sure I'd choke on the words.  So, maybe that's my answer.  

The question I ask myself, in the extreme unlikely event that the US and Britain went into conflict, which side would I choose?

Let's hope it never comes to anything like that.  The World Cup was bad enough.

..... I just can't bring myself to make an oath to another country, it would feel like a betrayal, like I would be breaking my word. ....

If you were talking about marriage, as opposed to citizenship, if you married one woman, but then lived with the lady across the street for the past 35 years, would you still feel honor bound to your (long deserted) wife?  

You have showed by your actions that you are tied to Britain, there is no harm in taking British citizenship and nobody will think less of you for it.

Sorry Mr_Val I don't see the analogy. First it's not a marriage vow, next you seem to be suggesting that my wife would even tolerate me sleeping with my neighbour and finally I'm afraid the comparison does nothing to explore the problem. If analogies are of any use here, it might be a better one to suggest that when I left home as a young man, I disenfranchised my mother, father and siblings in favour of someone else's family and gave the new family all my loyalty and placed my real family in second place. But even here there is no contract so even this analogy fails.  

As an American citizen you have the right to choose, to be or not to be as the title suggests. If you have no qualms about dual nationality then this is your choice, but I believe I'm not alone in my reservations. There is a trade off when choosing convenience or wants over principle. And as I stated in my first post,

I'm conflicted with the idea that perhaps times have changed, but I haven't. I'm afraid I like the concept and convenience of reliability, that when we give our word, it can relied upon to be the truth

I'm afraid I don't share the notion that a contract is only as good as the a contracted wants it to be. I believe a contract  requires thought and commitment, what I seem to be seeing is a movement where terms like commitment, loyalty, honour has no place. Returning to you analogy, you seem to be saying that these terms are irrelevant, and maybe your right for some people they are irrelevant, but for others, people like myself these term are deeply engrained and have great value.

I was drawing an analogy between a marriage vow and your reference to the pledge of allegiance; which, if I read your opening post correctly, you take at least as seriously as a marriage vow.

I know that the analogy isn't perfect, but if you take the pledge of allegiance that seriously, then I was just wondering how it is that when for all practical matters you have, by your actions given your allegiance to the UK, yet you are still worried about the pledge of allegiance to your former home country, which you long since left?

If I may also set the record straight I did not mean to suggest that "commitment, loyalty, honour have no place" merely that by your actions you have become practically British, if not legally so.  As the old saying goes, "Actions speak louder than words"!  

Wouldn't it be nice if life was always so clear cut. My actions speak for the relationship I have with my wife and my consideration for her, not the commitment I have for another country. Sometimes we have to accept that what's in the best interest of the people we love is more important than where we choose to live. And I make no apologies for putting my loyalty and love for my wife above my country, after all for 35 years she has always made me the first priority in hers. Even when my country asked me to be away from her for years at a time and sent her back damaged goods, she was there for me. I think my country will forgive me for putting her first. But my loyalty to my country has never been in doubt. If you'll forgive my directness I have the medals,  papers and wounds to prove that.

I suppose my presence here, for such a long time could be mistaken for commitment to another country, and  I would have to admit that I care deeply for this fine land and would fight for it if I had to, as my father did during WW2 with the US Air Force as a tail gunner in a B24 bomber. But than I have always been ready to defend my friends if they've needed help. Loyalty and honour isn't something that is exclusive and only available to our own, our friends deserve the same consideration as Britain showed to us on September 11th.

It is a difficult notion to get across to some people, as these posts make clear. I am what am I, an American with values that are at times different from my hosts and sometimes in conflict within myself. I am aware that my feelings are probably a construct, an amalgam of what I was taught early in my life. But this subject is about feelings, not science or pragmatism, it's not that utility. It's about hearing the national anthem and having something to identify with, it's about pride in my roots, and having the right to be critical when we (the USA) get it wrong. As a young man I put my life on the line and earned a life times membership to the society I was born in. Nothing can take that away, but I can, if I choose,  give it away. As sad as that may sound to some, I like my deluded state. I like the ideals my country represent but rarely achieves. It's not about governments, or fleeting moments with politicians, it's about the people I know and remember, real people, not TV personalities or public images. So what if these are just distorted memories, these are my memories.

If actions speak louder than words, then it's important to understand what the actions mean, and in order to do that, you need a lot more than is available in a simple post.

So trod carefully, for you trod on my dreams , (excuse the paraphrase from Shakespeare).  

Hi Folks - I do not wish to get embroiled in this discussion, but just a little tit-bit of information for you.  

About 6 weeks ago Sunny and I went to the Registry Office to book our wedding and the Chief Registrar (not a bit how I thought he would be, but rather an ex-hippy type, with a beard), spent time taking all our details, but as my future wife was an American, he went into some detail explaining that it would be him that would be in charge of Nationality Applications in this Area (we were talking about the 1,750 Economic Migrants  - Not Asylum Seekers! - that are living in this City at the moment).   During the conversation, he mentioned that in the near future, there would be a requirement for a minimum standard of spoken English, a knowledge of the country test, and an oath of allegience required.

On a personal basis, my wife just can't wait to be a British Citizen, she is totally disenchanted with the USA, and is a complete Anglophile.  I wont go into the reasons why in public, but if anyone feels offended that a fellow countryman, who has sworn allegience, now wishes to renounce those vows, I am sure that if you wish to IM us, she will give many reasons why she holds the views that she does, but obviously on a personal basis, rather than Political and Economic, she is, and always will be an American, and proud of her Ancestry.

Kind regards,

John

I think I owe you an apology John, I hadn't intended my comments to sound so critical of any one wishing to apply for dual nationality, I was really just expressing a personal view on how the subject had effected me. I do understand why some might choose to renounce their nationality or choose the dual route.

Wouldn't it be nice if life was always so clear cut.  ....... you need a lot more than is available in a simple post.

Thank you Loftus, I understand much better now, and I regret that I may have caused you offence, that was not my intention.  I am by nature a rationalist - I look at the facts as I see them and call them accordingly - to me a spade is always a spade no matter what name someone else chooses to call it.

I wonder how you managed all these years in the UK, if I had felt as strongly as you I would surely have persuaded my wife to return to the US with me.  I know that my wife enjoyed living in the UK, albeit relatively briefly, but she had many minor frustrations and we moved to the US to settle before we started a family.  I have no doubt that will be stressful enough without my wife having to adjust to the UK way of doing things.

I for one have now made my home in the US, and will be taking US citizenship as soon as time allows - 22 months and counting!

Take care Loftus, and best wishes for the New Year!

My dad was in the Army and I lived a life of pledges of allegiance, reverie in the morning and taps in the evening. My father's Arlington Cemetary funeral was a 21-gun salute and his casket was hauled on a caisson accompanied by a riderless horse. My American flag never touches the ground and I can't not cry huge sobs when I hear Lee Greenwood sing "God Bless the USA". I have voted in every single Presidential election since 1974.

I came to this country as a long-term guest and I never even considered changing my nationality.

Until...

Collier County, Florida doesn't like sending me absentee ballots. Each year they've dwindled the elections they're letting me vote in to the point where I totally missed the recent governor's election. Well, Florida politics aren't affecting me anyway. I no longer know the candidates; not sure why I should be voting based on how nice a name sounds. British politics are affecting me, but I can't vote for those candidates.

I pay British taxes. I contribute to British society. I'm not allowed to donate blood in the US because I have consumed British beef. If Britain was sent to war, it would be my home that was being bombed. Darn right I'd defend.

You raise a very interesting discussion point, Loftus.

I guess if this were my perfect world, my situation (and yours and yours) wouldn't be falling between these cracks. No one knows what to do with us. I'm happy to retain my American citizenship, proud, actually. But I want to vote in Britain. I'll defend Britain in case of war, but I won't do it to fight against the US. (Thank goodness we get along so well!)

Solution? Hmmmmmmmmm...
Since the US was of the Colonies, couldn't there be a precedence to be part of a Commonwealth (or ESU, English-Speaking Union--ha! let's start a controversy!)? Maybe rules could be a little more different, more lax for those people who are ESU members. Let's open up some borders. Let's mix some politics. Let's share some technology.

There should be a happy compromise for those who were born in America, yet live in Britain. For me, I just can't change my citizenship. Though, in 30 years' time I'm not sure I'll remember why.

I appreciate all your replies, as we see, living as an expat can have subjective problems as well as the objective.

LisaE, my father was also buried with honours and a 21 gun solute just outside of Boston so I appreciate what those memories must mean for you. I have to say you are much more diligent then I am with regards to voting [smiley=embarrassed.gif]

Thank you also to Mr_Val for taking the time to try and understand what I was actually saying, and I should add your comments did not offend me, but thanks for considering that.

As to why I did not try to convince my wife to return to the States with me rather than stay here; I have many friends that have done that, and I've watched many of them become torn between the two countries, sometimes I'm torn between the USA and England and it can be very difficult. My wife would follow me to the ends of the earth if I had asked her, but she is happy here, why should I take that from her? She has been to the USA, she was impressed with the kindness shown to her and the nature of the countryside, but some things go deeper than this. I would say my wife is one of those quintessentially English roses, almost a stereotype. Her family are farmers, very close and not very travelled. Though this would not change irrespective of where we chose to live, it would mean routine get-togethers would be more difficult, family wouldn't be on hand to support each other during difficult times, popping in for an afternoon wouldn't be possible. Her father now retired, wouldn't be able to bring his early crop of garden produce to us, which he is so proud of doing. Her brother and I wouldn't be able to continue debates on the state of farming, politics, or music with such seemlessness. These ritual meetings, though dull and routine as they may be, are happy moments for us.

I can easily live without Taco Bell, or Diary Queen, large refrigerators, air conditioning and all the conveniences I once knew. But, I'm not so sure I would be happy if the woman I married lost her Britishness which is what seems to have happened to many of my friends that did cross the waters. Equally, it's much easier for me to be here, I live in a county that I love, Dorset. Everything I could want is here. So it's likely I'll see my days out in this part of the country, but I will always remain an American, it's a part of my identity that I refuse to let go. While I don't live in a perfect world, it's as close as it can be for me, so why would I change a thing?

Just out of curiousity Mr_Val, are you orginally from the north of England?

.... Just out of curiousity Mr_Val, are you orginally from the north of England?

As it happens I am.   .... All my family are from Yorkshire, and although I left when I was eight years old I am still, and always will be, a Yorkshireman.

How did you guess, and why do you ask?

Just call it a wild guess...... A few years ago I studied with the OU reading psychology for my first degree. My interests were artificial intelligence and behaviourism. I have a particular interest in regional behaviours as a result of my degree, and your writing style seemed to indicate you had a northern English background, I just thought I'd see if I could locate your background in the right place, but I was torn between Lincolnshire and Yorkshire. So I guess all your travels haven't removed your Yorkshire ideals

i can see how you are concerned...your pledge of allegience as a child was infored by your vows when you joined the service.

perhaps duel nationality is the solution for you.

but then again...why change somthing that works for you...some times doing this for the simple reason of convience is not reason enuff.
if you are happy with the way things are...and are not requried by law to change them..then leave it be...there is no harm and there is no reason to work yourself up over it.