Pledge of Allegiance and OTT Patriotism

Ah I remember the EDL march here.....flag waving, singing of songs....

I moved to the US when I was 11 years old, so I found it odd that I had to stand up for the Pledge on my first day of school. Though, back home we did begin the day with  a prayer in elementary school, so I figured this was the US’s version of a prayer?!

The words had no meaning to me; then again I was not yet fluent in English. Once I did understand what the words actually stood for, my hormones were running a mile a minute for me to care.

I did have to do the Pledge during my US Citizenship ceremony last month. I knew all the words. Though, for the first time ever I wondered why we had to “pledge to the flag, “and what was the point of it really. I mean, isn’t the National Anthem, sufficient?!

In my opinion, I think people are slightly over-zealous of the US, since it’s still such a young country in terms of others and I feel that it still holds the mysticism that you can move here, become all you want and do it so freely. These were certainly my sentiments and those of my family when we did make our own move to the US, but overtime that ideal and view has lost some of its luster, unfortunately.

Personally, I’ve never been very patriotic. My dad finds my fascination with the UK funny and picks on me about it, saying that my patriotism/love should be geared slightly more to a country in the south eastern region, that being Portugal, lol.
My nationality is a part of who I am, but not ALL of what I am. This is something I’ve discussed at length with my father and others, many, many times.

Portugal is where I was born, the US is where I have been “formed” as the adult that I am and my life (as well as me personally) will progress in the UK once I move there. I love all of these countries for all the good that they represent and loathe/disagree with all the bits that are NOT so good.

Not having a singular adoration for one specific country, or patriotism, is a strange thing for most people to grasp, if my past discussions on this topic have proven anything.

I agree with a previous poster that certain people’s “over” patriotism scares me as well. My sister’s boyfriend is a prime example of this. Here’s a guy, whose of Irish and Portuguese descent, born and raised in the US, has never been ANYWHERE else in the world, but yet thinks all European’s are ALL  “p***ys” and that the US is the Mecca with which no other country can compete with. This is also the guy who thinks that Big Ben is in France and that Lady Liberty was always in NY Harbor. Yeah…  overall; he’s a harmless nice guy, just not very bright or educated.

He feels compelled to remind me of his “views” whenever I mention London or my move there. Such remarks are usually followed by having THIS immigrant school him on his birth country’s history.

I mean, come on!!! Do I really have to teach you that “the US received the Statue of Liberty as a gift from the “p**ys” from France? Whom ALSO aided you in winning the Revolutionary War, gaining your independence against those OTHER  “p**ssys” from England? Which, is where that big time keeper Big Ben is located, NOT in France. Which, FYI is where the Eiffel Tower is.  Which, was CREATED by Gustave Eiffel. You know? The same dude who GIFTED that lovely lady gracing NY Harbor, which you THINK was always there?!

Seriously, I’ve put this to him in such verbiage, and yet… nothing inks in.
The “radical” patriotism of SOME Americans, like those of my sister’s boyfriend, is unfortunately what gets noticed by other countries, as “typical” American.
In a country where your freedoms are SO important, it’s interesting to see how your choice to not be as overtly patriotic as others is so ridiculed.

Sure, it’s great that you love your country so much, but just because you decide to blatant display your pride does not mean that I have to show mine in the same manner. Whatever happened to freedom of expression?!

(Sorry for such a long post… )

Hopefully I can be considered the "Nice Patriotic" American! My dad grew up with his father in the services and fighting in WW2, my dad served in the Airforce for over 30 years and my brothers both went into the service for a short time. So to an extent, we were brought up to have a love and sense of pride for our country. But more than that, my parents were taught that you were to be respectful WHEREVER you were! (Not just the U.S.) I did do the pledge of allegiance in school as a child, but for some reason, can't really remember doing it much in Highschool. I can't say I was bothered either way. I don't mind people not participating as long as they are quiet and respectful during for the people that are...and vice versa, if I was in their country, I would act the same way (I.E. treat others the way I wanted to be treated).

I also was always brought up taught that you don't expect millions of people to curb their lives around yourself or 1 individual. (Kind like the saying "When in Rome, do as the Romans do") so every time we lived in a foreign country (though on a military base most of the time) he always encouraged that we learned the language or at least learn it enough to help the citizens of that country easier work with us. So when I lived in Korea, I tried to learn as much Hangul as possible so that when I went off base, I could be polite and be able to relay what I wanted/needed and it would always surprise the shop owners and please them that I would at least put in the effort.

Even here, I try to conform (with reason and without losing my own heritage, beliefs, etc.) and "do as the Romans do". If I don't like it, I just don't participate! (Not yet to happen to be honest! I've participated and loved everything so far!) Overall, I do think that you need to research, educate and understand where you are going and customs, etc. and I would likely say if you don't like those results, then don't go there. (That includes myself!)

Where I get angry is when you have people of different cultures KNOWING where they are moving to, burning that nations flag and complaining and defacing their historical monuments, ways of life and wanting to change an ENTIRE nations way because it doesn't suite them. It's not fair to that particular nations people for that one individual to be so selfish! I admit, that is a point where I say "look, if you don't like it, leave" because ultimately, this is what this nation is. Yes, things change and not all change is bad, but you can't expect this whole nation to revolve its self around one person! This isn't a "American" specific belief though, I believe you should be respectful to all countries (as stated earlier.) I feel that way here. If you don't like the way England does things, your not obligated to participate or even stay here...But at least be respectful!

I guess that's not so much patriotism as it is just common courtesy thinking. I do love my Country though! But there are better ways to show it then be aggressive! 

I live in Texas, a bastion of in-your-face, very overt, patriotism.  It really took off after 9/11, when flags, and anything with a flag on it, sold like hotcakes.  My daughter begged for a flag, and I bought the smallest one I could find.   

I feel that a person can love their country without owning such things, or talking about it 24/7. 

I was in NYC during 911, and it was very strange to see all of those 'car window' American flags littering the streets on New York... for months... after the event - and, oddly, they were all made in China.

The gutters in the streets of New York were clogged with them.

Odd memory.

Historically, people have imagined their countries as parents (Mother Russia, Fatherland, etc), however democracies are really more like children.  We create them, we bring them up, and it is our responsibility to raise them properly--teach them right from wrong, and correct them when they misbehave.  Just as people's failure to recognise flaws in their children can lead to bad parenting (how dare you criticise my child?  My child would never do that!  Well he's just high spirited/too smart for the class, and you don't understand him, so it's your fault!) so can people's failure to recognise flaws in their country lead to "bad" patriotism of the "America, love it or leave it" variety.  If we don't acknowledge and attempt to fix our country's flaws then we are really failing in our duty of care, and not properly looking after our child as it develops.  Of course, not everyone agrees on what the flaws actually are, but that's a discussion for another thread. 

Also, I would argue, despite the fact that this will likely be unpopular, that being a patriot in America is like being a Yankee fan.  The "rah rah USA" types point to things like military and economic strength when citing reasons why the USA is the best country in the world.  But there's no challenge in cheering for the team that always wins.  Real patriotism is loving your country for what it really is, recognising that it's imperfect and loving it anyway.  The most patriotic person I've ever met is a student I had a few months ago.  He's Syrian, but had to flee the country when the revolution broke out because he had got in a fight with one of his classmates, who happened to be a relative of Assad's, and said some things that the regime considered treasonous.  He was incredibly homesick here in England, and dealt with it by talking about Syria all the time.  His country was war torn, and run by a dictator who had driven him out, possibly forever.  Yet he was able to look past all that and focus on the things he loved about it, and continue to dream of how he might one day make it better.  That's patriotism.   
 

Wow historyenne!
I never thought of it like that - America as a child, rather than a parent, AND I REALLY LOVE THAT.

I love it.

Very well said.

That entire post was the greatest thing i have read anywhere in weeks.

And, this is so touching, "His country was war torn, and run by a dictator who had driven him out, possibly forever.  Yet he was able to look past all that and focus on the things he loved about it, and continue to dream of how he might one day make it better.  That's patriotism."

Good post, Historyenne. 

Wow Historeyenne, that's such a good way of explaining it.  Seeing the flaws and wanting to work to make the country a better place, yeah. 

So if rah rah patriotism is being a Yankees fan then is real patriotism being a Red Sox fan? 

So if rah rah patriotism is being a Yankees fan then is real patriotism being a Red Sox fan? 

 

Great post Historyanne! That's exactly the point I think!

I think much of what is being described as patriotism, particularly the OTT patriotism is actually jingohism. And that is what I find uncomfortable. The notion that someone is naturally superior because they have a belief that their country is somehow superior to all other countries.
There can be patriotic pride, just being proud of where you are from in cases such as the jubilee when people were just happy, or the Olympics.
DW enjoyed rooting for both the UK and US in the Olympics, she felt proud of her adopted homeland as well as her nationality.

I think much of what is being described as patriotism, particularly the OTT patriotism is actually jingohism. And that is what I find uncomfortable. The notion that someone is naturally superior because they have a belief that their country is somehow superior to all other countries.
There can be patriotic pride, just being proud of where you are from in cases such as the jubilee when people were just happy, or the Olympics.
DW enjoyed rooting for both the UK and US in the Olympics, she felt proud of her adopted homeland as well as her nationality.

Oh, thank you. That's exactly how I feel, but no matter how I try and describe it, it seems to come across wrong.

There can be patriotic pride, just being proud of where you are from in cases such as the jubilee when people were just happy, or the Olympics.

Even though I am from Florida, it took me a long time to attend a space shuttle launch. I can't even remember what mission it was. We watched from very close at this little park, with everybody picnicking and such - just across an inlet and a small marshy island. When those things blasted off it was an almighty sight, full of sound and fury signifying a whole lot. They were huge and accelerated at a rate which seemed unreal. I have never felt such a surge of patriotic pride - to be a citizen of a nation which could pull that kind of thing off.

/I also weep when I hear Whitney Houston singing the National Anthem.

I was just thinking about another similar thread on UKY from the distant past, where someone had said that they had difficulty with the notion of 'being proud' of being an American, or British, etc, because where you come from is just an accident of birth... nothing to be 'proud' of because it's not something that you have actually accomplished.

I cant remember all the details, nor the discussions that followed, but just throwing it out there in case any of you had thoughts on this...