Tipping

That old chestnut again - tipping is now in the news:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-22846846

Personally, I'd just prefer a living minimum wage. It seems those countries with better equality standards tip less, in the table in the article - though I'd be interested to understand better the North American / European cultural divide on the topic. Maybe it's what's considered polite, to show appreciation for the service, in addition to abysmal wage top up. But then why aren't retail workers tipped? It's a service also.  

Why do you think North Americans tip more? Is it a good practice? If so, when and where? Or do you prefer the European 'tipping' style?   

I tip generously in the US because those servers are more than likely not even making minimum wage, which is wrong IMO. Plus the servers are fawning all over you in an unnatural way as a means to solicit your tipping custom, which can be a bit annoying. Maybe it was always like that, but whenever I go back now - I'm a little freaked out by how many things are proclaimed as 'THAT'S AWESOME!' by the server (when you arrive, when you place your order, when you say yes everything is fine, when you order another drink, etc.....) & how many times a server can exclaim 'THAT'S AWESOME!' - we tend to laugh it off between ourselves rather than allowing it to be grating, because bless their hearts, you know they're working for the tips.

At the other extreme, I've been places on the continent where it seemed that the wait staff take umbrage at even having to turn up at your table at all (MLG - "That is NOT possible."  ), let alone take your order, and then take your payment at the end. I don't appreciate having to play wait staff hide & seek and chase up someone just to get a second drink or to pay my bill.

Here it depends on the venue - some places (pub, coffee shop with table service) we might tip a quid or two. Restaurants we'll usually go 10% as long as the service is of reasonable standard. I hate when restaurants add 'service charge' onto the bill - it's supposed to be voluntary, but who feels up to arguing against it & for people who may not notice it's been added on, then you're potentially tipping double! I prefer to avoid places like that.

I prefer the living wage approach for wait staff. And I agree tipping has become far too complex!

I x-posted with MLG, so I removed my topic.

Last time I was in the US, it was like my second night in country and we went to a bar. I I totally forgot I was supposed to tip... Well guess who got snubbed on the next round... and I felt really terrible because I realised I was supposed to tip and that the servers were depending on that...  I did make up for it the next round and it was all fine the rest of the night. But still....   made me think that it's not nice to get snubbed either for not giving a tip!   
Living wages would be better in my mind!

Oh & we tipped super generously when we were in Morocco - one, because the people doing service work there (restaurants, taxis, hotel or riad staff) - their standard of living is so much poorer than anything we can really imagine here, and two, an extra generous tip there (in Moroccan dirham) amounted to quite little in GBP or Euro. It really all does depend on the cultural & economic context.

The poor fellow (worked for absent European-Moroccan owners) at one riad where we stayed in the High Atlas - he was duty manager from dawn until midnight or long after all the guests had gone to sleep. Slept on a camp bed in the office. He worked 7 days a week, and was lucky to get a day or two off in a month to go visit his family. The owners didn't treat him very well & he was constantly fearful of losing his job - his extended family (elderly mom & dad, siblings) depended on his wages. There is no social welfare net. But he felt fortunate just to have a job as unemployment for young men is endemic there. The kindest, gentlest person you could imagine with a ready smile & a warm one-hand-on-heart handshake (in the Moroccan way) - so eager to please & make sure everyone was comfortable & had what they required. If someone deserves a huge tip, it's that man.

Or those taxi drivers - with old beatup cars - who collect you at the airport, negotiate 'crazy' traffic (cars, lorries, pedestrians, donkeys, donkey carts, mopeds & motorbikes, other cyclists)...know their way around the medina...carry your luggage & help you find your way in the maze of the medina, ensuring that you are delivered safely to your lodgings before bidding you goodbye. Boy do they ever earn their tip!

I'm a little freaked out by how many things are proclaimed as 'THAT'S AWESOME!' by the server

I've never heard that thank goodness, but I think it'd be enough to get me to drop the tip by $1 for every awful utterance. 

I've never heard that thank goodness, but I think it'd be enough to get me to drop the tip by $1 for every awful utterance.  

Have you ever seen that Third Rock from the Sun episode?!  

3rd Rock From The Sun - Dick tips

Maybe 'AWESOME!' is regional - I don't know? Last time we went back for a visit - last Oct/Nov time to a mid-Atlantic area, we'd just flown in that day & my brother and his wife took us to a tasty BBQ place for dinner - immediate assault of the 'AWESOMENESS'!! DH and I were really tired from the journey, and just a bit...whaaaaaa? wtf?

Then we met up with balmerhon & CCG (and baby CCG) one day for lunch at a brewpub place - which was really good & a good choice btw you gals! I'm not sure if balmerhon or CCG noticed it, and by this time, DH & I were getting used to the awesomeness too, but things were just really awesome there as well.

 

We usually go to 'downhome' type places though or midrange places, not fine restaurants much, as the former suit our budget & clothes better.  

The poor fellow (worked for absent European-Moroccan owners) at one riad where we stayed in the High Atlas - he was duty manager from dawn until midnight or long after all the guests had gone to sleep. Slept on a camp bed in the office. He worked 7 days a week, and was lucky to get a day or two off in a month to go visit his family. The owners didn't treat him very well & he was constantly fearful of losing his job - his extended family (elderly mom & dad, siblings) depended on his wages.

How did you know all of this?
Cos, if he told you, that would really put me off.   I don't want to know the hotel desk clerk's sob-story! 

How did you know all of this?
Cos, if he told you, that would really put me off.   I don't want to know the hotel desk clerk's sob-story!  

We befriended him & chatted over the days we spent there. This wasn't a 4-star hotel, but a small number of rooms (10 maybe?) & rather a 'tourist light' experience of cultural immersion high up in a remote mountain village - is the best way I can describe it, some people use the place as a trekking base or stopover. I wasn't feeling very well at that particular time and so we were taking it easy. He felt badly that I was unwell & so wanted to make sure that we were comfortable and entertained nonetheless.

We'd be sitting out on the terrace overlooking the mountains & if he'd make time to chat with us - we love meeting & getting to know people, especially from really different cultures than our own -- I ask tons of questions, lol! Had we responded with little conversation & indifference, I'm sure he would have left us to our own devices, but we tend to welcome interaction where it's possible & feels natural.

There was supposed to be a little walking tour available one day, where it turned out they didn't have a guide lined up - it was only DH and I interested in going, so he offered to be our personal guide for a short while & took us around to the places we felt like going, and then went on another short walk with us as well.

He wasn't just the desk clerk - he managed the whole place - checked people in & out, answered the phone & emails, did the reservation stuff, made sure the kitchen staff were organised (board included), pitched in as wait staff too, served mint tea & biscuits in the afternoons, organised tours & guides & transportation for people (getting to/from the destination is a palaver!), did tour guide duty if needed, oversaw maintenance & housekeeping staff & whatever was needed, etc. So manager/desk clerk/wait staff/concierge - and friend. The extent to which he worked hard - he didn't have to tell us - we could see that with our own eyes...and the head maintenance guy was a relative of the owner - who regardless of his lower position would make the manager cower in intimidation at times in the way that he spoke & threatening body language.

We still exchange an occasional email.  

Maybe it was always like that, but whenever I go back now - I'm a little freaked out by how many things are proclaimed as 'THAT'S AWESOME!' by the server (when you arrive, when you place your order, when you say yes everything is fine, when you order another drink, etc.....) & how many times a server can exclaim 'THAT'S AWESOME!' - we tend to laugh it off between ourselves rather than allowing it to be grating, because bless their hearts, you know they're working for the tips.

At the other extreme, I've been places on the continent where it seemed that the wait staff take umbrage at even having to turn up at your table at all (MLG - "That is NOT possible."  ), let alone take your order, and then take your payment at the end. I don't appreciate having to play wait staff hide & seek and chase up someone just to get a second drink or to pay my bill.

That overwhelming enthusiasm, as far as I can tell, has always been present (and annoying to me) in Canada. On the other hand, that not being possible or not seeming to want to do the basics of the job kinda just makes me rather stay at home and have people over instead.

I prefer places where there's the middle ground. You know, treat each other like human beings - you don't have to be grumpy or overhappy, but please just do your job to the best of your ability and I'll, reasonably speaking, tip at a reasonable rate.   

Last time I was in the US, it was like my second night in country and we went to a bar. I I totally forgot I was supposed to tip... Well guess who got snubbed on the next round... and I felt really terrible because I realised I was supposed to tip and that the servers were depending on that...  I did make up for it the next round and it was all fine the rest of the night. But still....   made me think that it's not nice to get snubbed either for not giving a tip!   
Living wages would be better in my mind!

That's some kinda social control / behaviour, uh, management  , in a way - feeling like one is being forced to tip wouldn't make me want to go anywhere like that again.     

Curious if you talked to your party about it and the cultural differences you've experienced. if so, what were their thoughts?

Tipping can be VERY confusing!  We just returned from 4 countries in Africa on our honeymoon and I forgot to look up the tipping guidelines before going.  And I always forget to get the right bills together before going.

Of course after arriving in each country, we needed to tip the driver who took us from the airport to the hotel and the person who brought our bags to the room.  I know it was my own fault for not looking up the tipping custom before traveling and I'm going to add that to my "to do" list for the future.  I think we always gave either a really huge tip or really low tip at the start.   

I have no problem rewarding someone who provides me with a service, I just don't always feel prepared.

Where all did you go, KFdancer? It sounds like it was a great trip!    In Morocco, we tipped taxis, baggage handlers, restaurants, etc - plus as we mostly stayed in riads (five different ones plus a hotel), we'd tip the riad staff - housekeeping, cooks, etc. Sounds like a lot but it's about 13 Moroccan dirham to the pound.

Over-familiarity by waiters, desk clerks, etc. is one of my biggest pet peeves. You're not my friend. Just do your job. Don't use my first name. Just do your job. Don't tell me your life story. Just do your job. And this holds true whether I'm in a big city in the UK or US or in a tourist-light mountain top village.

Oh well, different strokes, eh? I enjoy learning about other people's lives firsthand - especially when their lives are very different from mine. We made conversation and engaged him, so I didn't view it as overfamiliarity at all. 

The last couple of times I went to an Outback Steakhouse in the US, the server actually sat in the booth with us to take our order! That's definitely taking it too far.
The best service I've had has been in Dijon, France. There are 2 restaurants DH and I love to go when we're there, one of which is quite casual and the other very posh. In both places the servers are welcoming but not overly familiar, never come by too often, but also magically appear just when you want them. After a particularly good example one night at dinner at the casual place, we actually left a 10% tip even though service is now included in restaurant bills in France and it's typical only to leave €1-2 as a pour boire instead for good service. It was that impressive!