New relinquishment fee

I had a long look at relinquishing, but I don't think it would have worked for me. (I'm not an accidental American.) I don't think I could have argued successfully that I had relinquished citizenship when I naturalized, and there are questions on DS-4079 which I strongly object to, to the point of having no intention to allow myself to be subjected to such stupid and intrusive questions.  So I decided my only realistic (and bearable) option was to renounce. 

Tomorrow's the day - I'm typing this in a hotel room with $2350 tucked into my money belt and really looking forward to doing the deed!   

If I were an accidental American, I don't know what I would do.  I wouldn't want to be a covered expatriate.  It may be difficult for the IRS to collect overseas at the moment, but we can't be sure that will always be the case.

As for waiting for a new administration - who knows?  I think non-resident USPs (the majority of us - the ones who aren't getting rich through tax evasion and money laundering) are collateral damage, rather than a target.  The U.S. is trying to protect its position as the dominant financial power, able to bend other nations in the way it prefers through the strength of the dollar.  CBT is one of the tools being used in that tussle.  I personally don't think it's going to go away, but it's very possible that a way will be found to ease the unintended consequences for Americans abroad.

Maybe.  Or maybe not.

@iota

All the best for tomorrow, and let us know how you get on. The expectation is the ceremony should be professional and courteous. it's a shame it has to come to this, but needs must....

I'll raise a pint at lunch in your honour.

Thanks, OAP.  Appreciate your good wishes, and your good advice.  I'll report back shortly. 

Congratulations As I said, I am an accidental, I feel about as American as I feel Mongolian (or any other random country I'm not related to). It has to be hard though, as a bonafide American giving up a little part of you.

I'm impressed you moved so fast!

I'm not a rich tax dodger, I'm an average semi-broke dad who pays his taxes here in the UK as I should. I looked into cleaning the slate with the IRS and I can't really afford it, I could however put the renunciation on my credit card. The are a couple of things I don't understand, the renunciation and coming clean with the IRS seem to be two different things. Right? Or do you still have to spend a small fortune filling all sorts of things only to find out that you still don't owe any money to the IRS before you can renounce?

And if you don't renounce then the IRS can still come after you till the time stipulated by statute of limitations lapses, right? What's that? 10 years?

As for waiting for a new administration - who knows?  I think non-resident USPs (the majority of us - the ones who aren't getting rich through tax evasion and money laundering) are collateral damage, rather than a target.

I figured that's the case and I can see why many people would support the administrations actions as they see it as a way to catch billionaire tax dodgers. But hey... I'm scraping money together with my wife to buy a small modest house in the north of England. I'm hardly living the dream in Monaco.

Whenever I find myself feeling anxious about this situation this is what I think, the IRS are not after me really. I don't owe any tax! I'm a in effect a poor middle of the road nobody...

Congratulations As I said, I am an accidental, I feel about as American as I feel Mongolian (or any other random country I'm not related to). It has to be hard though, as a bonafide American giving up a little part of you.

Not at all.  I see things like citizenship as just bureaucratic stuff.

The are a couple of things I don't understand, the renunciation and coming clean with the IRS seem to be two different things. Right? Or do you still have to spend a small fortune filling all sorts of things only to find out that you still don't owe any money to the IRS before you can renounce?

I'm going through the Streamlined Procedures to "get compliant" at present.  It doesn't have to be completed before I renounce.    My affairs are very simple, so after initially feeling daunted by the forms, after much helpful advice from the forums I decided to have a go and do the filing myself.  Hoping it will never be looked at.

Once I've renounced, there are two further headaches:  Next year I have to file my final year's tax return: as a citizen for Jan to Oct 7, and as a NRA for Oct 7 - Dec 31.  Plus another form, which is the scary one that determines whether I'll be a covered expatriate.  Assuming I do it cleanly, I'll then be through with the IRS.

The final headache is waiting for the Certificate of Lost Nationality - proof that the U.S. acknowledges I am not a US Person and can go back to living a normal UK lifr without the constant anxiety lest my bank accounts get closed so the banks don't have to spend money reporting on them.

And if you don't renounce then the IRS can still come after you till the time stipulated by statute of limitations lapses, right? What's that? 10 years?

Unfortunately, it doesn't work like that.  You have to "become compliant" and stay that way, or you're "delinquent".  The statute of limitations just means you're only x years delinquent at any given time.  It's a real pain in the neck.

Whenever I find myself feeling anxious about this situation this is what I think, the IRS are not after me really. I don't owe any tax! I'm a in effect a poor middle of the road nobody...

Well, you probably do owe tax in their eyes, if you don't file, because you have to file in order to claim the tax treaty exemptions that theoretically are supposed to prevent double taxation.  TheOAP knows a lot more about this than I do.  It really is a pain in the neck.   

Good luck Iota.

I ENVY YOU!

As theOAP said, do let us know how it goes.

Good luck I wish I were as advanced with this process as you are.

Doing all the paperwork myself is something I am happy to look into, there are however complications with my specific situation which according to the adviser I saw would make the paper work complicated and expensive to fill in. Money that I really haven't got.

Specifically some ISAs which I've now got rid of. Sadly... they both lost me money! So I wouldn't owe anything anyway.

*sigh* I find the idea that a country I've only visited once as an adult and I left when I was barely 4 years old thinks I could owe them money a little crazy and very unfair... No other country would.

I'm revisiting this again in detail, with the intention of figuring out the whole streamlined process...

The are a couple of things I don't understand, the renunciation and coming clean with the IRS seem to be two different things. Right? Or do you still have to spend a small fortune filling all sorts of things only to find out that you still don't owe any money to the IRS before you can renounce?

And if you don't renounce then the IRS can still come after you till the time stipulated by statute of limitations lapses, right? What's that? 10 years?

All IMHO.


I’ve just been reviewing your original thread, RE: Accidental American panic.

If I understand correctly, you were born in the US to non-US / non-British parents. Your family left the US to return to the family country, and later you and the family moved to the UK where you became a naturalised British citizen. Is this correct? If so, it may be important.

The act of (relinquishing/renouncing) is an exercise technically separate from the exercise of being compliant with US tax obligations. You may (r/r) by filing the forms, going to the US Embassy , and completing either the (r or r). For these actions, your compliance with US tax has nothing to do with (r/r). If you so desire, you may never, ever, file anything to do with US tax obligations,

BUT,

Given your background, if you do not comply with US tax obligations, you will become a “covered expatriate”. Technically, the US tax authorities may hound you up to, and after, your eventual death. The US Congress continues to display its eagerness to find ways to make life Hell for covered expatriates.

 Is this a problem for you?

How long is a piece of string? What turns will your life take in the future? What legislation will be passed by the US and will the UK submit to US dictates (like it has for FATCA)? Or, will (r/r) be the last you ever hear about US tax obligations and will the US forget all about you? Might you find it easy to avoid the US forever?

There are arguments for both, and there are no answers other than you could pay up now, get a CLN, and know (for now) you’re free. Other than having a CLN, nothing is guaranteed, and some speculate even that isn’t certain. There are no simple answers.

As long as you are a US citizen (or a covered expatriate), you will have US tax obligations. Technically, the IRS may come after you for any year you were required to have filed a 1040, but didn't.

If I understand correctly, you were born in the US to non-US / non-British parents. Your family left the US to return to the family country, and later you and the family moved to the UK where you became a naturalised British citizen. Is this correct? If so, it may be important.

This  is correct.

BUT,

Given your background, if you do not comply with US tax obligations, you will become a “covered expatriate”. Technically, the US tax authorities may hound you up to, and after, your eventual death. The US Congress continues to display its eagerness to find ways to make life Hell for covered expatriates.

 Is this a problem for you?

In all honesty yes!

I've calmed down a lot since my original thread and I've done some research and got some of my records together.

However, I find myself having a little bit of a panic attack again. Over the weekend a family member had a stroke and another died yesterday. This stressed me out and got me thinking of this situation in a bad light again. It seems that when I lose my cool head I lose the ability to be objective and I feel hounded and persecuted by this. When OI have my cool head on my attitude is very much "this can slowly but surely be solved by paperwork which I can largely do myself cost effectively".

Willka76

1. Do not panic.
2. Take your time. There is no rush on this. Make sure you feel confident and fully informed about whatever path you take.
3. Please pore over the enormous resources of Isaac Brock Society website - you will find experiences of hundreds of people in the same situation as you. You can also ask questions there on various forums.
4. If I were you I'd ignore all this and go on with your life as before but I know I'm in the minority on this view. :-)

4. If I were you I'd ignore all this and go on with your life as before but I know I'm in the minority on this view. :-)

Stand by, we're not done yet, there's more to come. 

It's unfortunate that humans require sleep, especially us oldies.

This  is correct.

As I said in my previous post, your background events may be important.

Once you have your cool head back, you'll need to do research on when you naturalised as a UK citizen. The dates, in your case, could be very important for you.

If the dates were not recent, all of the above; owing tax, being hounded by the IRS, being a covered expatriate, may not apply to you. Research! The only sticking point may be your obtaining a US passport, but that could quite possibly be made a non-issue.

You may have preformed a relinquishing act. If so, and it was before a key date in the past, you may be able to relinquish, pay the new fee, and go your merry way. You may have to do some convincing to the Department of State. Research!

That's why all this business about relinquishing vs. renouncing is so important.

Or, you may take @stars advice. There are many ways to approach this, and it's all up to you. Just be sure you understand the consequences of each direction, and a very cool head is required.
   

Or, you may take @stars advice. There are many ways to approach this, and it's all up to you. Just be sure you understand the consequences of each direction, and a very cool head is required.

Since my original post I've come across another accidental American who is simply ignoring the problem. They aren't a naive person either, she is an international law expert who has worked at the UN.

Agree, she's not doing anything about it has weighed it up, she's decided to take the risk and do nothing. Which is as valid an approach as coming into compliance, just different risks attached to it.

Interesting how people with different personalities and ideas of risk deal with this. A lot could be written about it if people affected would share rather than hide.

Happy days, I'm an Unamerican.   

It went smoothly, pretty much as others have described.  Took about an hour.   It was like a post office counter, with the consular staff behind a glass screen - except I suppose this glass was bullet proof.  I went laden with naturalization certificate, name change, birth certificate and both passports, but only the passports were required.  They kept the expired U.S. one and eventually, to my relief,  gave me back the UK one.  Kisses!

Another US Person was renouncing while I was there. I don't know if Wednesday is Renunciation Day or if two a day is now par for the course.  I did get the impression the consular staff are somewhat dismayed, both by the increase in citizens coming in to renounce, and by the shocking price they're having to charge for what's supposed to be a citizen's right.  But that's only my impression, and could well be wrong.

I noticed with interest that the receipt for the cash identifies the transaction as a renunciation and is also marked "Sensitive but not confidential".

This was in Amsterdam.  I recommend it as a venue for renouncing one's U.S. citizenship.  The consulate is within five minutes walk of three major museums, and one (Rijksmuseum) has small free lockers where you can safely leave phone, tablet, laptop, whatever, before going to the Consulate.  And the atmosphere in the Consulate is far more normal than Grimnor Square.  Which hooray I will never have to set foot in ever again.   

Edit: Correction: the receipt is marked "Sensitive but not classified".  Applies to all visa applications, etc, so no particular significance for renunciations.

Congratulations Let us know how the streamlined process goes as well.

Congratulations! I hope I'll be able to do the same thing one of these days. Thank you for taking the trouble to report back to us.