New relinquishment fee

Happy days, I'm an Unamerican.

Thanks for the update of your experience, iota. A good read.

Amsterdam - what an excellent choice!

I remember Grimnor Square in the early 80's. The taxi would drop you on the street in front and you could walk up the main steps and straight onto the main floor. Times have certainly changed.

Your comments on the staff, although understandably only your impression, is interesting. The number of relinquishments/renunciations keeps rising in spite of the massive increase in the fee.

Congratulations! I hope I'll be able to do the same thing one of these days. Thank you for taking the trouble to report back to us.

Thanks stars.  Good luck - hope you will soon be reporting on your own renunciation.

Congratulations

Thanks.

Let us know how the streamlined process goes as well.

It seems the IRS Travelling Financial Crimes Roadshow never tells you if all is well, so I'm devoutly hoping never to know.   

Thanks for the update of your experience, iota. A good read.

Amsterdam - what an excellent choice!

I remember Grimnor Square in the early 80's. The taxi would drop you on the street in front and you could walk up the main steps and straight onto the main floor. Times have certainly changed.

Your comments on the staff, although understandably only your impression, is interesting. The number of relinquishments/renunciations keeps rising in spite of the massive increase in the fee.

I speculate that consular staff may be wishing their boss would tell Treasury to get their tanks off his lawn.

Meanwhile,  in the course of some desultory travel-time googling, I read a very interesting article which for me throws some light on CBT and US-style if-we-feel-like-honouring-this-bit tax treaties.  Posting a link in a new thread in case anyone else finds it interesting.

This is a very interesting thread, particularly since the recent faux pas committed by Emily Blunt when she took US citizenship. Also the Obama administration now has a campaign to get Green Card holders to become US citizens, presumably to make up for the flood of renunciations.



http://www.theguardian.com/film/2015/oct/01/emily-blunt-astonished-outrage-us-citizenship-joke

This is a very interesting thread, particularly since the recent faux pas committed by Emily Blunt when she took US citizenship.
http://www.theguardian.com/film/2015/oct/01/emily-blunt-astonished-outrage-us-citizenship-joke

I nearly laughed my cotton socks off when I first heard about this. I understand Fox News was ready to deport her, even though she's now a Murkin. Emily is going to have to learn to adjust her sense of humour (sp.) as an American, and not make fun of the Republican Clown Car.

Your comments on the staff, although understandably only your impression, is interesting. The number of relinquishments/renunciations keeps rising in spite of the massive increase in the fee.

Yes it is anecdotal, but if there are supposedly 4000-5000 then getting two people on the same day in once consulate office is actually fairly surprising, specially when the fee is so high and American nationality is supposedly a highly sought after thing. Maybe it is an exponential curve and it will go up to the tens of thousands.

I'm happy to report that my kids are not and cannot ever be American as I wasn't physically present in the US for the required amount of time *phew* I feel so happy for them!

Yes it is anecdotal, but if there are supposedly 4000-5000 then getting two people on the same day in once consulate office is actually fairly surprising, specially when the fee is so high and American nationality is supposedly a highly sought after thing. Maybe it is an exponential curve and it will go up to the tens of thousands.

I'm happy to report that my kids are not and cannot ever be American as I wasn't physically present in the US for the required amount of time *phew* I feel so happy for them!

Let's not get into a frenzy of "America bashing". The tax system is terrible, but as someone who actively took US citizenship, sometimes I feel compelled to argue the merits of the USA. I usually start with the First Amendment to the Constitution and it's excellent protection of free speech and prohibition of laws about religion. Unfortunately we next come to the Second Amendment which is very poorly written and thought out. But that's America all over, there's good and bad and remember lots of people still see it as the best place to make their future.

Yes it is anecdotal, but if there are supposedly 4000-5000 then getting two people on the same day in once consulate office is actually fairly surprising, specially when the fee is so high and American nationality is supposedly a highly sought after thing. Maybe it is an exponential curve and it will go up to the tens of thousands.

There were only two of us.  It's just as likely that they wait until they've got two or three requests for renunciation appointments and then schedule them to be done together.

It's just as likely that they wait until they've got two or three requests for renunciation appointments and then schedule them to be done together.

Good point.

Worth noting that if you look at the number of views this thread has got you'll see it's currently around 2695 - that's almost 20 times more view than most posts get on this forum.

There's a lot of interest, worry and fear about this subject. Many lurkers, few commenters.

Worth noting that if you look at the number of views this thread has got you'll see it's currently around 2695 - that's almost 20 times more view than most posts get on this forum.

There's a lot of interest, worry and fear about this subject. Many lurkers, few commenters.

Hah! I've been caught out! 

This subject is definitely of interest to me, and not because I've ever considered giving up my US citizenship.  In my circumstance - 59 years old with my whole life and family (including adult children) in the US - it simply doesn't make any sense.  However, until recently I had no idea these rules existed and that the US was in the minority with CBT.  I would have assumed that those citizens who live outside the US only pay US tax on US earned income, pensions, etc.  I spent almost 10 years as a CPA preparing taxes and financial statements in California, so I'm not ignorant of the subject in general.

As I read through this and other threads on the subject, I find the US attitude and stance appalling and don't blame anyone who wants to take such a burden off themselves by giving up US citizenship.  Then to find the cost of divesting oneself of such citizenship to be so onerous... it really is beyond belief that the average person of average means (I consider myself firmly in that group) has so few legal options.  What a rock and a hard place!

So, for what it's worth (not much probably), my opinion would be to ignore the situation entirely if I had so little connection with (use for) US citizenship.  To pay such a *cough* extortionate *cough* high fee for something that should be a basic right would make me see red.  This choice is more about what someone can put up with in terms of stress and anxiety, but, for me, it would be a calculated risk worth taking.

All that said, I do plan to remain compliant so I'm never in a situation where I have to make such a choice.  For sure I will be filing an FBAR (?) next year..... *sigh*

So, for what it's worth (not much probably), my opinion would be to ignore the situation entirely if I had so little connection with (use for) US citizenship.  To pay such a *cough* extortionate *cough* high fee for something that should be a basic right would make me see red.  This choice is more about what someone can put up with in terms of stress and anxiety, but, for me, it would be a calculated risk worth taking.

All that said, I do plan to remain compliant so I'm never in a situation where I have to make such a choice.  For sure I will be filing an FBAR (?) next year..... *sigh*

Unfortunately it's not a choice between compliance or renouncing. 

First, if they decide you're trying to renounce for tax reasons, the renunciation will be refused.

Secondly, in order to complete the renunciation without becoming labelled a "covered expatriate", you have to file Form 8854 which requires certifying five years' compliance  on pain of perjury (perjury being an extraditable criminal offence).  The rest of the form requires you to provide the IRS with the information needed to take half your net worth (including the mark-to-market value of one's home) should you fail to certify compliance or admit to being rich (the latter no danger in my case).  Then they come back for another dip if you subsequently give anyone a present of money or financial value (two dips if the recipient is a USP).  And finally, when you die, here comes the IRS again, to take a whack from any USP legatees.

They call it being a "covered expatriate" but as they do their best to strip one naked, "uncovered expatriate" would be more accurate.

So renouncing is not an alternative to compliance.

For me, the advantages of renunciation are three:

- I hope to be allowed to re-open my NS&I Direct Saver account (for which USPs are no longer eligible due to FATCA) and to be offered the option to renew my NS&I index-linked savings certificates, when they mature next spring.

- I'll once again be able to open new bank accounts as needed, just like I used to be able to do pre-FATCA.

- I won't have to file the pointless zero-tax returns every year.

Plus there's the ineffable sense of freedom regained.  Not to be underestimated.

Hah! I've been caught out! 

Probably nothing to do with you. 

Since an "un-American act" was mentioned, it's probably all the NSA / GCHQ computers kicking in.

"Nothing to see here, computers,...move along." 

If you wish to be really perplexed by the outcomes of CBT and renunciation, read the following example of calgary411 and the results for her son who suffers from a diminished ‘requisite mental capacity’.

http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2011/12/14/my-story-calgary411/

Unfortunately it's not a choice between compliance or renouncing.

You've touched on a key aspect, and one where we always say everyone's individual circumstances are critical to how they proceed, be it simply filing a tax return, or the more extreme acts of R/R.

For someone living in the UK for the past 20, 30, or 40 years, being part of a good employer pension scheme, and if unfortunately living in London where the equity in a home has skyrocketed (and dependent on type of home ownership), renunciation may carry some harsh financial realities. It's possible they may become a covered expat (even if relinquishing via an act later than 2004). If so, tax will likely be due, and it can be eye watering. The tax is also due at the time of the filing of 8854 (a payment plan can be established), but of course the person doing the R/R has not sold anything, so they need a large cache of ready cash available in order to pay the tax, which in itself may be the tipping point of taking one into "covered expatriate" territory. Talk about Catch 22. 

Probably nothing to do with you. 

Since an "un-American act" was mentioned, it's probably all the NSA / GCHQ computers kicking in.

"Nothing to see here, computers,...move along." 

If you wish to be really perplexed by the outcomes of CBT and renunciation, read the following example of calgary411 and the results for her son who suffers from a diminished ‘requisite mental capacity’.

http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2011/12/14/my-story-calgary411/

That was a cheery read..... not.  I can't even come up with words adequate to describe how unreasonable and unfair (yes, I know, "life isn't fair" - *grumble*) this woman's situation is.  Worse, she is far from the only one.  Where is the Supreme Court in all this?!?  Where is..... 

Oh, never mind, I think I'll just go back to bed, hide under the blankets, and try to regain that naive innocence I once had......