On being in a religious country

I'm definitely all for teaching christianity in the sense that kids need to be culturally literate.  It seems sort of amusing though really; it's hard to say what believers or non-believers are getting out of all of this nominalism.  Personally I think it's more to do with how cute kids look with dish towels and pipe cleaner halos on their heads.   I do wonder how the secular/sacred dialectic will work out for this country.

So, it is a simple matter not to have one's child participate in the annual nativity play?  Is it part of the permission waiver related to video taping/photographing/naming one's child in the play?  I'm not familiar with how 'free' these sorts of issues are wrt to religious re enactments.

I suppose you could opt out of the Nativity play if you wanted to.  But in my opinion that would be akin to hanging a sign around your child's neck saying 'I'm different, please bully me'.  And part of that is from experience, I too went to school with a Jehovas Witness family and I know it was very difficult for them.
I know there are some schools in the UK that do not put on Nativity plays and it's possible to ask about this when looking at schools.
But I'd also like to say that my children go to very diverse schools with quite a few non-Christian families and the children and their parents and grandparents, etc all seem to enjoy the traditional Christmas play. 

Apparently, one in five schools in London is opting out of the Nativity play.  According to ITV. 

I actually think the nativity play is fairly inclusive of various faiths and social groups. . First of all it is about  a Jewish family having a baby, the father of whom is not the husband, but it is claimed, their God is.  Second of all, there are the 3 wise men, who are usually portrayed as coming from "the East" often Persian, therefore they were probably Zoroastrians.  Of course there are no Muslims in it, as Islam came later.

Here is an alternative version of God Rest Ye Merry Gentlemen to get everyone in the (non religious) festive spirit:

    Gods rest ye, Unitarians, let nothing you dismay,

    Remember there's no evidence there was a Christmas Day.

    When Christ was born is just not known, no matter what they say,

    O tidings of reason and fact, reason and fact,

    Glad tidings of reason and fact.


    Our current Christmas customs came from Persia and from Greece,

    From solstice celebrations of the ancient Middle East.

    This whole darn Christmas spiel is just another pagan feast.

    O tidings of reason and fact, reason and fact,

    Glad tidings of reason and fact.


    There was no star of Bethlehem, there was no angels' song,

    There could not have been wise men for the trip would take too long.

    The stories in the Bible are historically wrong,

    O tidings of reason and fact, reason and fact,

    Glad tidings of reason and fact.



ps Anyone who does not wish to particpate in Xmas this year, please gimme your unwanted pressies!

Respectfully, there's nothing inclusive for Jews about the nativity scene. Practically all of its elements contravene Jewish mythology. The Old Testament is very suspicious of prophecies about individuals in general and these come in very specific sources and directly from the voice of the divine. The Hebrew God doesn't use cosmological events, like a shining star, in the way that they are used in the nativity scene, which clearly, in this instance, is from pagan mythology. Jews don't consider it necessary for events to be validated by pagan outsiders, like the three kings (and there's only one event in the entire year where non-Jews are invited to be observers, otherwise they're not welcomed). If it was going to a jewish event, then there would be a focus on the circumcision, and, lastly, the whole event is about the birth of a Messiah, and Jewish tradition is very specific about the events leading up to this event, none of which are involved in the nativity. It's a nice try, and I respect the effort, but having Jewish children act in a nativity play is just not kosher, no matter how you cut the sausage.

Sorry I should have put a smiley or something, my tongue was well in my cheek in that last post.

Sorry, but it's worth emphasizing because there are sections of the Gospels that ARE recognizably Jewish. For instance, the Last Supper is clearly based on the Passover Seder and the breaking of the bread, the breaking of the matzoh in that ceremony. But the nativity is nothing close to it: it clearly comes from pagan ceremonies.

ps Anyone who does not wish to particpate in Xmas this year, please gimme your unwanted pressies!

Sorry,one day each year I'm a believer.LOL

Dave

As a Unitarian, I have to admit that set of lyrics sounds a little antiseptic.  On the other hand, how many churches sing that Wassailing song during service?   A good cup of mead all around .

I suppose pressie-acquisition is very much the inspiration behind the Season, but I do think that humans need a winter *something* to look forward to.  That might also explain why things get so dire when expectations aren't met.  */tangent*   I think trying to figure out the precise mythology behind Christmas is going to be problematic, since early Christians were trying to infuse Old Testament prophesy into it while weaving in current practices to entice the masses into joining in.  And since then, all faiths have been evolving, and every generation has had to try to make its own interpretation of a very non-static phenomenon.   Better to just drink mead, methinks..

Well the real split occurs with Paul. The figure Jesus was against teaching to non-Jews because Judiasm is very much against proselytism. Paul was the one who decided that the apostles should preach to non-Jews and he accordingly moved to the heart of the pagan world, Rome.

That seems right..I seem to remember Paul saying something like, 'In Christ there is no gentile or jew, male or female, yankee or limey..'  Well, paraphrased a bit, I admit.   Jesus had a pretty full plate, nevermind extending his efforts beyond his kindred.  I recall a couple of instances of Jesus interacting with gentiles, so I wonder what he would have gotten around to had he a bit more time. 

Sorry, it's late and I have a head cold that seems to be holding my neurons for ransom.

Here's why this discussion matters: Two articles today, one from the LA Times, the other from Frank Rich, conservative columnist for the NY Times. The US Christian extremists are flexing their muscles after the election.


"Will it be the Jews' fault if "The Passion of the Christ," ignored by the Golden Globes this week, comes up empty in the Oscar nominations next month? Why, of course.

"Hollywood is controlled by secular Jews who hate Christianity in general and Catholicism in particular," William Donohue, president of the Catholic League, explained in a colloquy on the subject recently convened by Pat Buchanan on MSNBC. "It's not a secret, O.K.?" Mr. Donohue continued. "And I'm not afraid to say it. That's why they hate this movie. It's about Jesus Christ, and it's about truth." After the show's token (and conservative) Jewish panelist, Rabbi Shmuley Boteach, pointed out that "Michael Moore is certainly not a Jew" and that Scorsese, Coppola and Lucas are not "Jewish names," Mr. Donohue responded: "I like Harvey Weinstein. How's that? Harvey Weinstein is my friend."
...
In the latest and most bizarre twist on this theme, even Christmas is now said to be a target of the anti-Christian mob. "Are we going to abolish the word Christmas?" asked Newt Gingrich, warning that "it absolutely can happen here." Among those courageously leading the fight to save the holiday from its enemies is Bill O'Reilly, who has taken to calling the Anti-Defamation League "an extremist group" and put the threat this way: "Remember, more than 90 percent of American homes celebrate Christmas. But the small minority that is trying to impose its will on the majority is so vicious, so dishonest — and has to be dealt with."

If more than 90 percent of American households celebrate Christmas, you have to wonder why the guy is whining. The only evidence of what Pat Buchanan has called Christmas-season "hate crimes against Christianity" consists of a few ridiculous and isolated incidents, like the banishment of a religious float from a parade in Denver and of religious songs from a high school band concert in New Jersey. (In scale, this is nothing compared with the refusal of the world's largest retailer, Wal- Mart, to stock George Carlin's new best seller, "When Will Jesus Bring the Pork Chops?," whose cover depicts its author at the Last Supper.) Yet the hysteria is being pumped up daily by Fox News, newspapers like The New York Post and The Washington Times, and Web sites like savemerrychristmas.org. Mr. O'Reilly and Jerry Falwell have gone so far as to name Michael Bloomberg an anti-Christmas conspirator because the mayor referred to the Christmas tree as a "holiday tree" in the lighting ceremony at Rockefeller Center.
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/12/19/arts/19rich.html?oref=login

or this:

This year, as Christmas season swung into gear, Pastor Patrick Wooden's followers fanned out to shopping malls across Raleigh to deliver a muscular message of holiday cheer: As Christian shoppers, they would like to be greeted with the phrase "Merry Christmas" — not a bland "Happy Holidays" — and stores that failed to do so would risk losing their business...

Conservative Americans feel ready to push back against "the secularists or the humanists or the elitists" who dominate popular culture, said the Rev. Mark Creech of the Christian Action League of North Carolina, which is based in Raleigh.

"It's a cultural war. We are in the thick of it," Creech said. "It's not so much an attack on us. It's an attack on Christ."...

"There's one group of people who get bullied all the time, and that's Christians," he said. "I know what it is like to be bullied. It is apartheid in reverse — the majority is being bullied by the minority.

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-season18dec18,1,169299.story?coll=la-headlines-nation

Even if I beat back that naughty bit of my thinking that likes to see a good show of 'payback is fair play,' it's hard to be terribly symphathetic to the claim that Christians are being trampled.  In the States they enjoy quite a bit of tolerance for their antics.  This is always the problem with religions that rely heavily on themes of persecution and ultimate redemption and the smiting of foes by their god.  Ultimately, if they're playing serious literalism, they don't play well culturally with others.  I suppose that's why British nominalism is so workable. 

I respect the rights of the likes of Bill O'Reilly and Newt to ascribe to whichever faith they wish and rant accordingly.  But I just don't buy that 'Moral Majority' malarky.  Christian fundamentalism would quickly prove itself not so feasible if all of those vast numbers actually started behaving according to those beliefs they supposedly hold so dear.

We have right to free speech, but I'm not sure how happy we ought to be to hear slogans taken from the Nazis (conspiracies about Jewish money) said on air, threats that minorities "have to be dealt with," and open admissions of "cultural war" against non-fundamentalists. Why did we go to war against the foreign Taliban only to give our domestic Taliban paid media coverage?

None of them have grown up particularly religious - the oldest has tried various churches and read a lot about Buddhism -the youngest sings in the cathedral choir - loves the music but is completely unimpressed (and unconverted) by the theology. and

and?  and your kids read The Upanishads?  No, probably not what is missing from your post.   You left me hanging! 

Thank you for sharing your experiences and your chidren's dabbling in religions.  Always intriguing to learn how this shakes out for the children who are participating in the Christian/Catholic religion in school.

Saw my neighbor yesterday and she complained much about one family who refused to give permission for their child to be videotaped/photographed in the nativity play at school.  For this school, that meant no video or photos.  Neighbor was very angry that one parent could mess it up for the entire school, especially those parents who needed to work and would only see nativity play on video.

Thanks, Mindy, for the stat on schools opting out of nativity.   Wonder why?  (off to google)