Children of British Mothers born pre 1983... useful info

Another twist

My wife who is in her early 60's (born outside the UK), of a war bride British mother & non Brit father (he who does not have British descent) she was until now not allowed to have 'it'

Her sister & brother both born in the UK have dual nationality

At the age of 8 she went to the UK with her family stayed 10 years, schooled, even worked, has an NI card & paid (topped up) her NI contributions a few years ago, so that she gets a Brit pension - is still not a Brit

In the late 70's we went to the British High Commission in Toronto asked for the papers etc for nationality (not knowing the law had changed) - full blown doc's of her parents birth & marriage certificates, our marriage certificate (since I'm a born Brit)

What came back was a stamp in a passport 'certificate of patriality' (right of abode) and the Brit official saying "you dont need a Brit passport, the stamp will do" - oh how naive we were back then

So we have sat waited 30+ years gobs shut ... her time has come, all too late we think

That's very interesting Nuts. I too was born outside the UK to a UK mother & non UK father in the 1960s. I was granted British Citizenship as a child in the early 70s though, after my parents sought help from their MP.

This is a different matter - but is there any proposal to waive the application/fee part entirely?  It seems silly that because your parent is one gender instead of another, you have to wait ages and pay money to become a citizen instead of it being automatic.

I'm on your team, it cost over $800  to do the UKM!

I'm on your team, it cost over $800  to do the UKM!

The cost (the $800) is reasonable via a UKM to become citizen IMO

Just look at the total cost & time involved in becoming a citizen the conventional route

The UKM route should not be an easy-pee  gimme

With the passing of the BCI this week my wife is deciding to just go spend a couple hundred bucks to get a British passport the way my two children did based on their (me) British born father citizenship

If its just about the cost (and the paperwork involved), does it have to be the UKM right now - why not just get the British passport?

It's not reasonable when you realise that just by having the other parent be British, someone is automatically British without having to pay a penny. Why shouldn't it be a gimme? It's not the child's fault if the 'wrong' parent was British at the 'wrong' time!

It's not reasonable when you realise that just by having the other parent be British, someone is automatically British without having to pay a penny. Why shouldn't it be a gimme? It's not the child's fault if the 'wrong' parent was British at the 'wrong' time!

and discriminatory in the sense that my two children that hold British passports through their right from the male line (me) are only quasi citizens

They have only a British passport that says they are UK citizens (nothing else) & if they do not renew that passport they are sunk. They do not have a citizenship certificate which they cannot get unless they live in the UK for several years then apply the conventional route & pay the fees involved

I still say the not earned back door route at $800 for the fly paper citizenship certificate is a good option - almost like a fake diploma

In the US it is my understanding an adult born outside the states of a US parent can get quasi citizenship - 'the passport', but does not get the fly paper

My wife at 62 has waited long and patient, does not consider the passing on of the right by descent to her children or grandchildren & the cheap passport route is just fine, thank you very much

So, how is open revised no holes barred UKM wrong?

The only thing that makes it wrong is that it is a requirement for the children of the parent of one sex...if that makes sense.

If my British parent had been my dad, I would actually have been born a full citizen - there's nothing quasi about it!  I wouldn't need to prove it any more so than any other British citizen, and if I wanted to enter the UK as a British citizen, I would also do that in the same way as any other British citizen, with a UK passport, that I would take care to keep renewed.

I don't need to prove my US citizenship either, but if I want to travel from country to country, I keep my US passport valid.

So the only thing wrong with paying $800 (or £480 as I will pay in the UK) is that it's not required for the children of BOTH sexes.  However, I've waited long enough so will, indeed, register as a citizen and be so happy when I finally have a UK passport to go with my US passport...

The only thing that makes it wrong is that it is a requirement for the children of the parent of one sex...if that makes sense.

If my British parent had been my dad, I would actually have been born a full citizen - there's nothing quasi about it!  I wouldn't need to prove it any more so than any other British citizen, and if I wanted to enter the UK as a British citizen, I would also do that in the same way as any other British citizen, with a UK passport, that I would take care to keep renewed.

I don't need to prove my US citizenship either, but if I want to travel from country to country, I keep my US passport valid.

So the only thing wrong with paying $800 (or £480 as I will pay in the UK) is that it's not required for the children of BOTH sexes.  However, I've waited long enough so will, indeed, register as a citizen and be so happy when I finally have a UK passport to go with my US passport...

Unless I am toatlly stupid & misinformed, or do not understand the citizenship thingy

in one way yes, the issue is citizenship by descent for those born outside the UK & the UKM is a good idea in opening the back door route up

under the revised BCI my wife can get a passport only, just like the ones previously who born after 1983 could get one & does not need the $800 expense

Holding a passport is no different than the right to drive & is only as good as one keeps on paying the renewal fee

Having the full certified naturalized fly paper allows right for someone to live in the UK with them needing that passport unless they were travelling

Again, my kids have passports and are quasi citizens IMO- unless they waste their time living in the UK to become naturalized citizens with the fly paper

The past rules do not make sense to me & the new UKM is a back door blessing to citizenship & I'm not talking about the passport route

Nuts, I have no idea what you're talking about. Your children are not quasi citizens. Their birth certificates with you, a British citizen, listed as the father, are sufficient proof that they are British citizens. If they are travelling outside the UK, they would need to travel with British passports into the UK just as any British citizen would, but if they were to live in the UK they wouldn't need a passport any more than anybody else. Even their expired passports would be proof of their citizenship. The only difference between them and British citizens born in the UK is that their children will need to be born in the UK to be British citizens, as citizens by descent cannot pass on their citizenship to the next generation unless in the UK. If Juliloew's father had been British instead of her mother, she would be a British citizen as fully as anyone else who is British, and just be able to apply for a passport without having to go through an extra step of paying a lot of money and proving she is 'worthy' of citizenship. It's total nonsense!

As for the US case, if you are born of a US parent, you have no choice but to be a citizen of the US, and must use a US passport to travel to the US.

Forgive me for the gooblygob

let me explain if I can for those who do not live in the UK who are considering te route and merits of British citizenship

The open door UKM is about as right at cost of $800 - full blown right with naturalized certifcate

My kids born & who live outside the UK hold Btitish passports - a measly couple hundred bucks. This is renawable citizenship (passport only)

My kids are not full citizens IMO, they cannot apply on forms BOS or BOTA & I do not see a UKF version of the UKM

I have been told that my kids are citizens as long as they have vaild passports and continue to renew them. Should they let them expire and try on their foreign passports to gain entry to the UK, to work, to open bank accounts, get an NI - they will be out of luck.

All is not as clear as mud

citizenship isn't renewable, and it doesn't expire.  your kids are citizens whether or not they have a british passport.  they'll have to prove their citizenship if they want to move to the UK, which is easily done with a passport.  but if they then let their passport expire that doesn't mean they're no longer British citizens!

No, Nuts, you are wrong. UKM is not for naturalising- it is for registering. It is for people who have a right to British citizenship but are not AUTOMATICALLY citizens. Naturalisation is for immigrants who have no right to citizenship. Your kids cannot apply for citizenship because they are ALREADY citizens, from birth, by virtue of having a British father who is British otherwise than by descent. Citizenship doesn't expire with a passport, it is permanent unless actively revoked. Whoever told you your children are not full citizens is wrong.

x-posted with springhaze

Springhaze & super, thanks for the feedback & clarifcation

If you take a look at a British passport application form C1 & notes & for those born after 1983 to a British Mother they can get a passport just like as though it was from their father

With the new BCI its open door and supposes that those born before 1983 can now get that passport via their Brit born mothers

Springhaze, I disagree totally that holding an expired passport that my kids are still citizens - what proof at border entry do they have?

Super, yes to be corrected under UKM 'to be registered as a British citizen'

Springhaze, I disagree totally that holding an expired passport that my kids are still citizens - what proof at border entry do they have?

BIRTH CERTIFICATES!!! Just like any other citizen! Someone born a citizen in the UK would also need a valid passport to enter the country, expired passports don't work for anyone. That doesn't stop them being citizens for goodness' sake! You are a citizen whether you have a passport or not, and so are they.

The BCI only makes it so that (correct me if I'm wrong juliloew) children born overseas before 1961 of British mothers are able to REGISTER as British citizens, as those born overseas between 1961 and 1983 were already able to do. Only children born overseas AFTER 1983 of British mothers  are automatically British, like your children and those of other British fathers. You seem to be under the impression that British citizenship by descent somehow expires if the passport is kept up to date. That is WRONG. A passport is a handy way to prove citizenship, and must be presented at the border as for anyone, but they only GOT passports because they could already prove British citizenship with their BIRTH CERTIFICATES, and your birth certificate showing that you are British. If these can be produced, they have proven their citizenship. Proving citizenship and HAVING citizenship are completely different things. Due to their birth they HAVE UK citizenship; by producing your birth certificate proving you are British and theirs proving they are your children, they can PROVE UK citizenship. I don't know how to make it clearer!

good points, still not clear to me

Then with the new revised BCI, I suppose that there is also a possibility that British passport 'C1' may also change allowing those born of British mothers like British fathers to acquire a British passport, thus removing the 1983 date stamp

If so then there will be no need to do a UKM

On the UK passports of my children (gained through me), I still say they would not be allowed entry to the UK to live & work with a foreign non EU passport.

And without a valid UK passport or valid entry visa they are sunk

So on the new BCI rules you'd think a change of passport rules would be imminent allowing anyone born of a British mother should  be allowed to apply & get a passport, just like as though it was acceptable from good old Dad

An expired passport in my childrens case to me does not mean they still retain British citizenship - & I stick by that

One last point from the horses mouth (UK border agency) if my wife had applied for a British passport on the merits of her mother prior to the changes to the nationality act in 1971 she would have gotten one. Still not clear, still murky