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Topic: "sat there" - grammar  (Read 8293 times)

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Re: "sat there" - grammar
« Reply #30 on: October 01, 2012, 08:15:01 PM »
I laugh when things are funny.
I though it was funny.


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Re: "sat there" - grammar
« Reply #31 on: October 01, 2012, 08:18:06 PM »
At least you got a response my 'entomology' spoonerism fell rather flat....
I just hope that more people will ignore the fatalism of the argument that we are beyond repair. We are not beyond repair. We are never beyond repair. - AOC


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Re: "sat there" - grammar
« Reply #32 on: October 01, 2012, 11:02:11 PM »
I had always thought this was a north of England thing as well.  I have to say it's very rare in Scotland.  The grammar thing that is, not arguing.  ;)


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Re: "sat there" - grammar
« Reply #33 on: October 01, 2012, 11:17:55 PM »
I had always thought this was a north of England thing as well.  I have to say it's very rare in Scotland.  The grammar thing that is, not arguing.  ;)

My Scottish husband understood the issue straightaway. He found it normal.


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Re: "sat there" - grammar
« Reply #34 on: October 01, 2012, 11:34:50 PM »
I though it was funny.
At least you got a response my 'entomology' spoonerism fell rather flat....
You pair of jokers are definitely well matched comedically. 

Spoonerism--Definition

On s'envolera du même quai
Les yeux dans les mêmes reflets,
Pour cette vie et celle d'après
Tu seras mon unique projet.

Je t'aimais, je t'aime, et je t'aimerai.

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Re: "sat there" - grammar
« Reply #35 on: October 02, 2012, 02:07:00 AM »
I've been thinking about this thread since I first saw it the other day.

Serious question- does British English use different participles (or whatever part of speech "sat" is in the "was sat" sentence)? The grammar of it doesn't make sense to me. "Sat" is a verb form. It's not an adjective (or is it in BrE?) As in, they are not describing the woman. They are saying what she's doing (or did). If they don't want to use the progressive form of the verb (sitting), then why isn't it "She sat there..."? Or even, "She was seated.." which I admit sounds awkward, but not as much as "was sat."

I have never heard someone say this was correct. Is it correct in written form, too? Or is this just one of those spoken things that's so common it's becoming accepted (like using plural pronouns/possessives as a gender neutral singular pronoun)?

Yes, I'm such a grammar nerd, that I've actually been thinking about this for days! :P
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Re: "sat there" - grammar
« Reply #36 on: October 02, 2012, 06:18:38 AM »
  I have to say it's very rare in Scotland. 

Is it?
I live in Glasgow and hear it all the time.


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Re: "sat there" - grammar
« Reply #37 on: October 02, 2012, 08:12:35 AM »
I hear it down here in the southwest as well, so it's definitely not regional. However, whether it's technically correct or not, nobody in my large extended British family would ever say it. It just sounds wrong to us.
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Re: "sat there" - grammar
« Reply #38 on: October 02, 2012, 08:15:23 AM »
Yes, I'm such a grammar nerd, that I've actually been thinking about this for days! :P

Well my earlier point was that there is more being conveyed than just the simple action of the subject. Obviously the person is sitting/seated in a chair. What the speaker really is saying is that the person was being a bit of a pain. Or that they themselves were inconvenienced in some way:

"I was sat there for half an hour while the receptionist had her tea."

This brings me around a bit to historyenne's point of view. Language first and foremost is a transference of meaning. Or something.

But let's imagine you are being interviewed for a place at Oxford. The panel asks, "What made you consider Oxford"? Would you reply with, "Well I was sat there at my desk one day and the thought occurred to me...."

This whole thing is of interest as it does seem to be a differing way of viewing something which seems very clear on the surface.





I just hope that more people will ignore the fatalism of the argument that we are beyond repair. We are not beyond repair. We are never beyond repair. - AOC


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Re: "sat there" - grammar
« Reply #39 on: October 02, 2012, 08:57:35 AM »
This is a new experience for me because I am very much a prescriptivist, and have never accepted "native speakers say it" as an argument in favour of non-standard grammar.  However, as an EFL teacher, I do have to explain to my students the things that they hear people say.  The explanation I gave at the beginning of this thread is the one that I have developed for my students, and I confess that I have never put much intellectual effort into debating whether it's correct or not.  People everywhere say it, and it makes grammatical sense to me, so I never really delved deeper.  I acknowledge that reasonable people can disagree about what is acceptable and what isn't, but with all due respect to the fine nerds at wordreference, I will always consider my teaching colleagues to be the ultimate arbiters of grammar.  Some of them are so erudite it hurts.  If someone with forty years of English teaching experience says something is correct, then that's good enough for me. 

So to address gottagettolondon's question: 

It is not considered standard to put "stative" verbs (ie love, hate, like, own) in any kind of continuous/progressive form.  These are verbs that describe states and not actions, so since states either are or they aren't these verbs can't be continuous.  However, ever since McDonald's popularised "I'm loving it," people have increasingly been using these verbs in the continuous form.  EFL textbooks now advise that stative verbs can be continuous if they express a passing state, one that is temporary and therefore can be thought of as an action.  So you would still say "I love my husband," not "I am loving him," but in the event that love for your Big Mac overcomes you whilst you're eating it, you can say "I am loving this Big Mac."  It means you are loving it right this minute, but aren't necessarily commenting on the permanent state of your feelings for Big Macs.  Thus our understanding of states and actions has evolved.   

The sat/sitting thing is an extension of this action/state issue.  Saying "I was sat" suggests that the speaker considers sitting as a quick action that once finished becomes a state.  It's not continuous because the action is finished and now we are describing the result of the action: that I am sat.  Since using past participles as adjectives is a common standard practice, this makes perfect sense to me.  Sitting doesn't involve any actual movement, after all.  It's not the same as "I was playing," or "I was thinking," though think is a verb that can be both active and stative.

I'm out of time so can't elaborate further, but I hope this was a reasonably comprehensible explanation!
On s'envolera du même quai
Les yeux dans les mêmes reflets,
Pour cette vie et celle d'après
Tu seras mon unique projet.

Je t'aimais, je t'aime, et je t'aimerai.

--Francis Cabrel


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Re: "sat there" - grammar
« Reply #40 on: October 02, 2012, 12:16:56 PM »
I'm most intrigued by the regional/non regional thing.  Everyone who has claimed it's regional (including me) has been rebuffed by someone else who knows people from Land's End to John O'Groats who say "was sat there".

Tracey - I don't spend a huge amount of time in Glasgow, but I'm sure people there do say it.  Not sure I've heard it in Edinburgh, and none of my extended Glasgow family say it, and certainly nobody I grew up with ever said it.  My mother (from Airdrie) works with English people who say it and she finds it wonderfully quaint and cute.

I wondered if it was something being spread around by TV (like the dreaded Americanisms ;D). I googled the phrase and actually found someone who claims it was popularized by Mollie Sugden in "Are You Being Served" - which I personally hope is true. 

I'd be interested to know if anyone thinks there's a generational aspect to this as well.


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Re: "sat there" - grammar
« Reply #41 on: October 02, 2012, 01:02:04 PM »
Thanks, H! I am laughing at the thought of becoming overcome with love for my Big Mac. ;D And I completely understand your explanation. The only thing that strikes me, though, is that it's almost like someone has misapplied the rule. You know- like when little kids (or EFL students ;)) start adding "-ed" to every verb to make it past tense? I guess my argument is that yes, sitting and standing are action verbs, albeit not as active as your example of playing. And while participles are used as adjectives all the time, are there any other examples of "sat" or "stood" as adjectives? I can't come up with any other sentences that don't involve a verb (was/is/were/are) first.

Oh, and DH (nor anyone from his family) from Glasgow does not say this phrase.
"Happiness is the consequence of personal effort. You fight for it, strive for it, insist upon it, and sometimes even travel around the world looking for it." -Eat Pray Love

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Re: "sat there" - grammar
« Reply #42 on: October 02, 2012, 01:06:46 PM »
I'm most intrigued by the regional/non regional thing.  Everyone who has claimed it's regional (including me) has been rebuffed by someone else who knows people from Land's End to John O'Groats who say "was sat there".

Tracey - I don't spend a huge amount of time in Glasgow, but I'm sure people there do say it.  Not sure I've heard it in Edinburgh, and none of my extended Glasgow family say it, and certainly nobody I grew up with ever said it.  My mother (from Airdrie) works with English people who say it and she finds it wonderfully quaint and cute.

I wondered if it was something being spread around by TV (like the dreaded Americanisms ;D). I googled the phrase and actually found someone who claims it was popularized by Mollie Sugden in "Are You Being Served" - which I personally hope is true. 

I'd be interested to know if anyone thinks there's a generational aspect to this as well.


Tonito- interesting point! I really hope Mollie Sugden is responsible for this, too. ;D Though, her character is portrayed as being lower class, so that would (possibly) imply about it being a class thing that was mentioned earlier in the thread.

See, it's topics like this that convince me I need to go study linguistics like I keep saying I will. It's fascinating!
"Happiness is the consequence of personal effort. You fight for it, strive for it, insist upon it, and sometimes even travel around the world looking for it." -Eat Pray Love

beth@medivisas.com
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Re: "sat there" - grammar
« Reply #43 on: October 02, 2012, 01:45:48 PM »
she finds it wonderfully quaint and cute.


No offence to your mother at all, but... ugh.
I go to great lengths not to have 'quaint' things in my life, and now I find I may have to modify my speech in case someone thinks it's 'quaint'?  ;)


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Re: "sat there" - grammar
« Reply #44 on: October 02, 2012, 04:18:12 PM »
Ha ha - I used to be a little bit of a grammar snob, but the older I get & the more places that I get to...nah, not so much any longer.  I just love the different dialects, regional differences, etc.

I thought maybe the 'sat' thing was a northern thing, but I guess not.  They say it here in Yorkshire & yeah at first it sounded really weird, but now I say it too...  [smiley=curtain.gif]

And not just in a negative/painful sense or whatever.  :P

And I say other Yorkshire-isms occasionally (depends on how much time I've been spending around natives here - which is most of the time), like dropping 'the' & using the wrong tense...'I were on bus'  [smiley=laugh3.gif]  I was as surprised as anyone the first time that dropped out of my mouth - not trying to sound like the locals, but the longer you live somewhere I think it's only natural to unconsciously pick up speaking patterns that you are hearing all the time.

Heh - I know it's wrong & it used to make me cringe (back in the snobby old days), but it's how people talk in real life - so eh, whatever.  Although I've heard the argument from someone on here before (Tykeman maybe?) that it's actually not 'I were on bus' but rather something like 'I wa' on bus'...and yes, said quickly (as you do) I think that's probably it.  Not bothered either way.  The longer I've lived here, the more fond of & at home with Yorkshire dialect I've become.  :)
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